Go Back   EcoModder Forum > EcoModding > EcoModding Central
Register Now
 Register Now
 


Reply  Post New Thread
 
Submit Tools LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 12-15-2020, 02:16 AM   #11 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
Stubby79's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Victoria, BC
Posts: 1,604

Firefly EV - '98 Pontiac Firefly EV
90 day: 107.65 mpg (US)

Little Boy Blue - '05 Toyota Echo
90 day: 33.35 mpg (US)

BlueZ - '19 Nissan 370Z Sport
90 day: 17.19 mpg (US)
Thanks: 67
Thanked 493 Times in 368 Posts
Most engines would be fine. If it isn't a harmonic damper, it isn't doing anything useful beyond driving the accessories. A harmonic damper will have a ring of rubber in it.

None of the small engines I've had in my cars have had a harmonic damper, afaik. I can only confirm a couple of GM V6s that I've had that did.

  Reply With Quote
Alt Today
Popular topics

Other popular topics in this forum...

   
Old 12-15-2020, 03:58 AM   #12 (permalink)
High Altitude Hybrid
 
Join Date: Dec 2020
Location: Gunnison, CO
Posts: 105

Avalon - '13 Toyota Avalon HV
90 day: 31.32 mpg (US)

Prius - '06 Toyota Prius
Thanks: 80
Thanked 29 Times in 23 Posts
A lot has to do with engine speed. The old air cooled VW's don't even have counterweights on the crankshaft nor a harmonic dampener.

I do remember one VW guru recommending a weighted pulley for performance reasons.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2020, 07:56 AM   #13 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
Ecky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Vermont
Posts: 4,148

Gaptooth (retired) - '00 Honda Insight
Team Honda
Gen-1 Insights
90 day: 54.26 mpg (US)

Such Fit - '07 Honda Fit Sport
90 day: 41.27 mpg (US)

Connect - '15 Ford Transit Connect XL
90 day: 23.4 mpg (US)

K-sight - '00 Honda K-sight
Team Honda
90 day: 44.31 mpg (US)
Thanks: 1,953
Thanked 1,748 Times in 1,125 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stubby79 View Post
Most engines would be fine. If it isn't a harmonic damper, it isn't doing anything useful beyond driving the accessories. A harmonic damper will have a ring of rubber in it.

None of the small engines I've had in my cars have had a harmonic damper, afaik. I can only confirm a couple of GM V6s that I've had that did.
It is - both are.
  Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Ecky For This Useful Post:
Stubby79 (12-15-2020)
Old 12-15-2020, 11:18 AM   #14 (permalink)
Somewhat crazed
 
Piotrsko's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: 1826 miles WSW of Normal
Posts: 1,493
Thanks: 148
Thanked 414 Times in 351 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Isaac Zachary View Post
A lot has to do with engine speed. The old air cooled VW's don't even have counterweights on the crankshaft nor a harmonic dampener.
The cranks have counterweights, them roundy things at the ends of the journal.
There's even a limit as to how much con rod weight you can use, and I have had shops drill the cranks when I got I beam rods. I agree, they dont have dampners because the crank is short and beefy so doesn't flex much.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2020, 02:02 PM   #15 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
freebeard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: northwest of normal
Posts: 18,062
Thanks: 4,947
Thanked 5,971 Times in 4,774 Posts
Crankshaft length is shared by a V-4. The boxer [four] has an inherent balance compared to a V or inline arrangement.
__________________
.
Good sense, innocence, cripplin' mankind
Dead kings, many things I can't define
Occasions, persuasions clutter your mind
Incense and peppermints, the color of time

Who cares what games we choose?
Little to win, but nothin' to lose


"Incense And Peppermints"
_________________
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2020, 03:24 PM   #16 (permalink)
High Altitude Hybrid
 
Join Date: Dec 2020
Location: Gunnison, CO
Posts: 105

Avalon - '13 Toyota Avalon HV
90 day: 31.32 mpg (US)

Prius - '06 Toyota Prius
Thanks: 80
Thanked 29 Times in 23 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piotrsko View Post
The cranks have counterweights, them roundy things at the ends of the journal.
There's even a limit as to how much con rod weight you can use, and I have had shops drill the cranks when I got I beam rods. I agree, they dont have dampners because the crank is short and beefy so doesn't flex much.
Peformance aftermarket VW cranks have counterweights. But the stock ones do not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by freebeard View Post
Crankshaft length is shared by a V-4. The boxer [four] has an inherent balance compared to a V or inline arrangement.
Good point from you both!

You can ignore the rest, it's just me bragging.

I did balanced the heck out of my Type 1 dual port engine when I rebuilt it. I had the crank (stock without counterweights) dynamically balanced along with the flywheel, clutch plate assembly and even the pulley. Then I took and got all the pistons, pins and bearings within a fraction of a gram of each other and also suspended the connecting rods over two scales so I could balance each rod end so all the small ends and all the big ends also weighed exactly the same.

I've seen the same engine in a friend's Super Beetle bounce all over the place just idling. My engine ran smooth as butter, which is one reason the guy who bought it was so impressed.
  Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Isaac Zachary For This Useful Post:
Ecky (12-15-2020), freebeard (12-15-2020)
Old 12-15-2020, 05:31 PM   #17 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
freebeard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: northwest of normal
Posts: 18,062
Thanks: 4,947
Thanked 5,971 Times in 4,774 Posts
When I built up a stroker 1776 I did basic balancing but added a heavier Gene Berg (IIRC) 8lb lower pulley. It was intended as a truck engine. I see the Hot VWs Mileage Motor went with a lightened flywheel. I believe the original John Karcey build went heavier:
Quote:
He started with a 76mm crank and 77mm pistons = 1415cc, stock 1300cc heads with some "mild " port work flycut .120" to get 9.0:1 compression, dual solex/Kadrons with custom machined 25mm venturies and a 100 main jet, and a 009 dist. A 12 volt 180mm flywheel (heaviest flywheel VW made), and yes a modified 62 Jag front crank pulley that weighed 10 lbs. He used a WEB cam (no specs given)
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=97269
__________________
.
Good sense, innocence, cripplin' mankind
Dead kings, many things I can't define
Occasions, persuasions clutter your mind
Incense and peppermints, the color of time

Who cares what games we choose?
Little to win, but nothin' to lose


"Incense And Peppermints"
_________________
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2020, 09:35 PM   #18 (permalink)
It's all about Diesel
 
cRiPpLe_rOoStEr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Porto Alegre, Rio Grande do Sul, Brazil
Posts: 8,648
Thanks: 0
Thanked 954 Times in 844 Posts
I don't remember when it was the last time I saw a harmonic dampener. Even some 3-cyl engines are kept deliberately unbalanced from the factory.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2020, 10:40 AM   #19 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 768

Toyota Prius SUV - '10 Toyota Prius II
90 day: 59.63 mpg (US)

V6 Ford Ranger Pickup - '96 Ford Ranger
90 day: 25.97 mpg (US)

CB 750 - '00 Honda CB750 Nighthawk
90 day: 37.35 mpg (US)

Kawi KLR 650 - '07 Kawasaki KLR650
90 day: 45.83 mpg (US)
Thanks: 224
Thanked 152 Times in 121 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by cRiPpLe_rOoStEr View Post
I don't remember when it was the last time I saw a harmonic dampener. Even some 3-cyl engines are kept deliberately unbalanced from the factory.
Must be a small engine thing? Everything for the most part has harmonic balancers or internal balance shafts here in the USA.

In Toyota fashion the Prius has a harmonic balancer with belt grooves in it and it doesn't even have an accessory drive. Probably because it already existed and worked.
__________________
"I feel like the bad decisions come into play when you trade too much of your time for money paying for things you can't really afford."
  Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to hayden55 For This Useful Post:
Ecky (12-17-2020)
Old 12-17-2020, 10:56 AM   #20 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
Ecky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Vermont
Posts: 4,148

Gaptooth (retired) - '00 Honda Insight
Team Honda
Gen-1 Insights
90 day: 54.26 mpg (US)

Such Fit - '07 Honda Fit Sport
90 day: 41.27 mpg (US)

Connect - '15 Ford Transit Connect XL
90 day: 23.4 mpg (US)

K-sight - '00 Honda K-sight
Team Honda
90 day: 44.31 mpg (US)
Thanks: 1,953
Thanked 1,748 Times in 1,125 Posts
I want to say Honda didn't install them on their D15 engines, but the slightly longer stroke D16 (and every engine of larger displacement) got one.

I had to check, and the Insight's 1.0L 3 cylinder has a harmonic damper. That surprised me a bit as I imagine it's probably an accessory loss, turning some crank motion into heat.

Maybe all timing chain motors have one? I could see a belt as providing some damping.

  Reply With Quote
Reply  Post New Thread


Thread Tools




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.5.2
All content copyright EcoModder.com