Analyzing, refurbishing/repairing a dead hybrid battery pack (2000 Honda Insight)

[roussel789]

Originally Posted by MetroMPG

This thread will document the adventure.

Your posts are really amazing and in detailed explanation on repairing a dead hybrid battery is great.

[IamIan]

Originally Posted by eq1

I was just thinking charging is charging, now it's like 'What's this balance charging thing?' But let me take a stab at it...

Perhaps "balancing" is equivalent to what I'm calling "detection stuff?"

Anyhow, I'll leave it at that for now...

Maybe if I try a different way to explain it.

The Super Brain has one +/- battery connection for power ... that's it ... from that it can try to do 'detection stuff'.

The PL8 can do the one +/- if you like ... and the 'detection stuff' ... similar to but with more options than the Super Brain ... but the PL8 goes a step further ... it has a balancing plug that allows it to do multiple +/- at the same time.

Picture of PL8 using single +/- Super Brain like battery connection


Picture of PL8 using both +/- AND the separate balancing connector:

( Note: The balancing connector can be used by itself, if you wish )

Picture of the DYI general version of the balancing connector.


Sense not everyone wants to wire up their own battery each cell at a time ... some battery OEMs put their own cell level connections in when they build the battery ... they sell some of these adapters for the PL8 balancing port ... but those battery specific adapters are battery specific.

As for multiple sticks from one PL8 ... you could do multiple in series or in parallel ... either way hasn't it's pros and cons.

In Series as you wrote individual cell level detection becomes more difficult... balancing is only done with current ... different cells see different voltage.

In Parallel , you are balancing each parallel connection via voltage ... so if multiple batteries are connected together in parallel they all see the same voltage... each one connected in parallel could see different current.

The PL8 can only do Voltage AND Current balancing for up to the 8 or so it can connect to via the balancing port... you can connect each of those to others in series or parallel ... but you then run into a similar problem from above ... only advantage is that it is now ... 8 pieces instead of 1 big piece.

Originally Posted by eq1

Wasn't able to do that for whatever reason...

EM won't let me attach it (?) .... send me PM with email and I can send it directly to you.

[eq1]

Most of this is starting to make sense. But just in case anyone else tries to follow, let me quickly summarize the whole point. The point of all this discussion about this charger, in this thread, is that it could make the whole process much more efficient and effective than what you can do with the Super Brain.

It takes a long time to cycle every stick in the Insight pack. It took me almost 2 weeks. Really tedious. With the Super Brain you kind of have to pay so much attention to what's going on that it's annoying, but not enough that it's interesting. You have to check-in every so often, move connections, write down results, etc. It's a serious pain. It would almost be worth buying 2 Super Brains to cut all this in half. BUT, if this CellPro 8, or PowerLab, or whatever it is, can do at least 2 sticks at a time, plus log/export data to a spreadsheet, it'd probably be worth the extra cost. Doing 2 sticks at a time (at the least) and logging - it'd be worth maybe ~$300 to me...

One advantage, if I understand correctly, is that understanding the condition of your pack or sticks pretty much requires seeing graphs of how each stick behaves, the voltage change, when charging and discharging, comparing the graphs of each stick. Pretty sure the CellPro allows logging and exporting such data.

Now, again if I correctly understand what Ian is trying to drum into my meaty head, it sounds like you can do at least 2 sticks with a single CellPro the same way, or in a similar manner, as the SuperBrain does one... Seems like there might be a few different choices, and a few different limits.

I'm gonna have to look at the manual, because at this point I just have too many questions...

[eq1]

Originally Posted by IamIan

Maybe if I try a different way to explain it.

The Super Brain has one +/- battery connection for power ... that's it ... from that it can try to do 'detection stuff'.....

In your first image, that's equivalent to the SuperBrain setup, where the charger can use a voltage cutoff to detect discharged state, or delta V for full charged state. The CellPro8 can do this, with one stick, or perhaps multiple sticks in series, up to the voltage and current limits of the charger? Same as Super Brain, which in theory can do 3, 4 sticks? in series, up to 24 cells, but it treats the whole thing like it would one stick. This is not balance charging...

Your last image shows the balance charging set up. If I were doing a single stick, and took the shrink wrap off to gain access to the 'nodes', I'd connect one lead to positive, one to negative, and 5 of the node connections to the points in between the individual cells?

Or, perhaps I could put 2, maybe more, sticks in series and treat the sticks as if they were individual cells, using the node connections at the intersections between sticks? Kind of doubting this option...

Don't know what the parallel setup would look like. Not sure of the advantages and disadvantages, and still foggy on the exact range of options/limits when it comes to doing Insight sticks specifically...

[IamIan]

Originally Posted by eq1

Most of this is starting to make sense. But just in case anyone else tries to follow, let me quickly summarize the whole point. The point of all this discussion about this charger, in this thread, is that it could make the whole process much more efficient and effective than what you can do with the Super Brain.

While I agree... I will also point out that the additional features are not needed ... the job can be done with the less expensive more basic tools ... there are of course benefits of better tools ... but it comes with more cost.

To each their own.

Originally Posted by eq1

Now, again if I correctly understand what Ian is trying to drum into my meaty head, it sounds like you can do at least 2 sticks with a single CellPro the same way, or in a similar manner, as the SuperBrain does one... Seems like there might be a few different choices, and a few different limits.

Yes multiple methods to do multiple sticks at once... separately from the PC data logging feature ... and the profile editing feature ... and the regenerative discharge feature.

Option 1> Mulitple Sticks in Series.
Like the Super Brain the PL8 can do more than 6 cell series connections.
However this does treat all the cells in series as one block unit ... all cells in series will see the same current... not the same voltage.

Option 2> Multiple sticks in Parallel.
The Super Brain could also do this option. The issue is that is treats all the connections in parallel as one block unit ... all the parallel blocks see the same voltage ... not the same current.

Option 3> PL8 balancing plug.
The balancing plug on the PL8 allows you to simultaneously control the voltage and current of 8 pieces of a series connection separately from each other.

Option 4> PL8 balancing in series.
Each of the 8 pieces is designed to do up to Li battery voltages ... which is equal to 3 NiMH cells in series ... which means if 4 Sticks were put in series you could connect every 3 cells ... thus doing something like what the Super Brain does .... but it would see each 3 cell half of a stick as a unit and it could do 4 sticks at the same time.

Option 5> PL8 balancing in series / parallel.
The balancing 8 pieces can also be put in parallel with other similar batteries ... the advantage is more at one time ... the disadvantage is the same parallel issues from before ... all the parallel connections see the same voltage but not the same current.

Option 6> Multiple PL8s running simultaneously.
The PC Program the PL8 uses to interface with the PC with can run multiple instances of itself at the same time ... if your PC can keep up ... you could have multiple PL8s connected as above all connected to different USB ports on the PC... each operating and logging separately from each other.

Option 7> Multiple PL8s as Master/Slave
PL8s can be setup to be a slave to a master PL8 ... the master PL8 has a single connection to the PC via one USB port ... the Slave PL8s communicate with and are controlled by the master PL8 ... the PL8 hardware limit is 16 PL8s in one massive PL8 network coming into one USB port.

Option 8> Multiple PL8 USB ports & Master/Slave
7 + 8 above can be combined all into one PC ... if the PC can keep up.

Originally Posted by eq1

I'm gonna have to look at the manual, because at this point I just have too many questions...

Sent.

[eq1]

Originally Posted by IamIan

While I agree, I will also point out that the additional features are not needed - the job can be done with the less expensive more basic tools. There are of course benefits of better tools, but it comes with more cost....

Option 3> PL8 balancing plug.
The balancing plug on the PL8 allows you to simultaneously control the voltage and current of 8 pieces of a series connection separately from each other.

Option 4> PL8 balancing in series.
Each of the 8 pieces is designed to do up to Li battery voltages ... which is equal to 3 NiMH cells in series ... which means if 4 Sticks were put in series you could connect every 3 cells ... thus doing something like what the Super Brain does .... but it would see each 3 cell half of a stick as a unit and it could do 4 sticks at the same time....

I think these are probably the key options to consider when it comes to doing an Insight pack. One, you could do one stick much more thoroughly, if you can somehow connect each 'node' wire from the balancing port to each cell in the stick. Two, and probably more important, you can do 4 sticks at a time, plus be able to treat each stick as if it were a 3-cell stick rather than a 6-cell stick. You'd probably get a better discharge/charge, plus you'd reduce the time by a factor of 4... Only thing that'd bug me about this is that you'd have to remove the sticks from the pack and remove the shrink wrap, which adds some work and time (16 of the 20 sticks just pull out, 4 of them have extra wires/thermistors attached, which you'd have to remove, too)... Plus, I'm merely assuming that you can access the connection points between each cell - without damaging the stick. I've seen Mike D. do something similar before...

How many sticks could you do without removing anything, treating them as a 6-cell unit (i.e. not a few sticks in series or parallel)? Could you do 1 from the regular +/- leads and 1 from the balancing port?

Anyhow, I personally probably won't buy it, but maybe someone else will find it a good option. If I hadn't already done my pack and bought the Super Brain, and know what I know now about the PL8, then I probably would have bought the PL8. It'd be like $240, plus a few bucks for that bare wire adapter, plus maybe $20 for the USB data connection, plus the cost of the appropriate power supply, for which cost I have no clue...

Later...

Wow, maybe I jumped the gun on that one. I was just looking at the manual and the specs for power supplies, and then browsing some power supplies - and it looks like they can be really expensive. One I looked at was $400+... That's a serious downer...

[IamIan]

Originally Posted by eq1

Only thing that'd bug me about this is that you'd have to remove the sticks from the pack and remove the shrink wrap, which adds some work and time (16 of the 20 sticks just pull out, 4 of them have extra wires/thermistors attached, which you'd have to remove, too)... Plus, I'm merely assuming that you can access the connection points between each cell - without damaging the stick.

Due to the outer metal wall of a D cell being electrically the same as the bottom - terminal ... any connection to that is the same as connecting to the bottom... so... connect to the - stick terminal ( Hex shape if stick is out of pack ) the + of that same cell is the outside metal shell of the next cell.

The side effect of the above is that the stick does not have to be taken apart in order to gain electrical access to each individual cell ... you only need a point of electrical contact sufficient for your intended current level ... At one point I choose to do that with a slight modification to one of those round camps that tightens down in a circle as you turn a screw , available at all hardware stores.

Originally Posted by eq1

How many sticks could you do without removing anything, treating them as a 6-cell unit (i.e. not a few sticks in series or parallel)?

For basic battery diagnosis and balancing I recommend this method as a major labor saver even if you are only doing one stick at a time ... leave them in the pack and just connect to the ends.

Under these conditions the PL8 manual only shows one 6 cell stick at a time would be supported ... at up to 20 Amp Rates per PL8.

There might be a loop hole I have not yet confirmed ... that could still allow up to 3 sticks at a time through the balancing port per PL8... But I have not confirmed that yet... and it is not a setup shown in the Manual.

Even without series connections or parallel connections only connecting to one stick per PL8 ... in the 'expansion' or master/slave mode ... with up to 15 slave PL8s to 1 master PL8 ... you could do 15 such sticks at a time ... each at 20 Amps... all into 1 USB port ... than you could use multiple of these setups on multiple USB ports if your PC can keep up with the data streams.

Originally Posted by eq1

Could you do 1 from the regular +/- leads and 1 from the balancing port?

Not that I know of ... but I have not tested or asked customer service to confirm.

Originally Posted by eq1

Anyhow, I personally probably won't buy it, but maybe someone else will find it a good option.

I doubt there are many people that need the features enough to warrant the additional cost.

Originally Posted by eq1

Wow, maybe I jumped the gun on that one. I was just looking at the manual and the specs for power supplies, and then browsing some power supplies - and it looks like they can be really expensive. One I looked at was $400+... That's a serious downer...

The loop hole I use is the regenerative discharge option ... the PL8 can be connected to a battery for it's power to charge with and to use as a energy dump during discharge ... I like the energy efficiency of this option a great deal ... I can recycle / store about ~80% of the electrical energy of a battery discharge test/cycle ... into a 2nd battery instead of throwing it away like many other units do.

A side effect of this option is that a Battery sufficient to handle the full Watts of power transfer is not only cheaper than a AC power supply ... plus I gain the energy efficiency benefits of above ... the regenerative discharge 2nd battery can be charged for the % loss at a much slower rate thus a cheaper AC charger than would be needed for a 100% energy AC power supply.

For my personal setup ... I have two 1st Generation Hybrid Civic battery packs I bought from a junk yard ... I did testing and such back in 2007 ... to put them to a useful life and not to just collect dust ... I rewired the sticks to be 2 series 20 parallel (2s20p) ... for a 14.4V nominal battery pack of over 120 Ah ... ~1,700 Wh usable ... While the combined batteries could put out discharges at up to a peak of ~20kw and up to peaks of ~10kw charging ... I did not built it to handle that much at a sustained rate ... nor do I currently have need for a ~20kw battery source ... but it can easily handle a PL8 with no issue ... and if needed I can also use the energy in the combined civic battery for my power inverter to power any AC loads I might wish to.

[RobH]

Great post.
I have balanced the pack in my HCH in the past, but now it doesn't seem to balance anymore. I bought a second pack to be able to keep the card going while charging other sticks. I think I may have broken the PTC strips or one of the other three thermocouples. Be gentle putting it back together. Not sure how to diagnose the problem but I think the pack is charged. Currently driving it with IMA and MIL lights on. Should I turn off the switch on the pack?

[IamIan]

Originally Posted by RobH

Great post.
I have balanced the pack in my HCH in the past, but now it doesn't seem to balance anymore. I bought a second pack to be able to keep the card going while charging other sticks. I think I may have broken the PTC strips or one of the other three thermocouples. Be gentle putting it back together. Not sure how to diagnose the problem but I think the pack is charged. Currently driving it with IMA and MIL lights on. Should I turn off the switch on the pack?

Generally the first step in diagnosis anytime you have an error code is to get the error code read ... if you don't have a reader yourself ... you can go to an automotive parts store like the autozone or similar and ask them to read it for you ... you are more interested in the actual error code than what they think that error code means.

Battery packs give error codes for multiple reasons ... some are treatable ... some are not ... some require replacement.

A Treatable issue is one that like putting air in your ties will need to be done again every now and then ... this treats the effects but does not fix the original issue that produces those effects.

Some issues like a worn out tire , require something to be replaced in order for it to be properly functional.

In order to know / quantify what the cause of your battery errors are would require that the pack be tested ... each part and the combined whole can be tested and it's performance quantified.... by yourself or pay someone else to do it for you.

[RobH]

Error codes I am seeing are:
1600
1449
1420

1420 is new, haven't seen this one before. Still not sure if I should turn off the switch on the battery untill I get time to fix.

Any thoughts?