Analyzing, refurbishing/repairing a dead hybrid battery pack (2000 Honda Insight)

[eq1]

Originally Posted by IamIan

.....I have one... the ( PL8) Power Lab 8 from Cell Pro.....

I read you can buy an adapter and be able to charge 2 packs of the same design - at the same time. Yet, it sounded like this feature was only for particular types or brands of batteries; there was a specification, but I didn't know what it meant. Do you know anything about that?

[ogregev]

Originally Posted by IamIan

And you can build the device to do any if you wish... it doesn't have to be an average.

Super Brain has 'sensor input' plug ... it doesn't know if it is or is not actually a sensor ... all it knows is that it expects it to be within a certain range of resistance ... and for that resistance to change as the temperature of the battery it is in contact with changes.

That sensor input could be the output from the auxiliary device ... the auxiliary device itself monitors each individual cells temperature with it's own temperature sensors ... one on each cell ... the auxiliary device then changes the signal to the Super Brain when it determines the temperatures are at some point you design it to look for as a trigger.

That trigger point could be a specific temperature ... or you could be looking for the dT/dt type effects... whatever you choose it to be in the design ... if you wanted to get fancy in the design you could make it changeable ... either directly or by connecting it to a PC.

That is what I was referring to by the external circuit.

Now weather it is worth the effort or not ... that depends ... but it is doable.

That is the key. It isn't even worth pulling the sticks out of the pack for us. We keep them in so that we can run a fan. The extra labor it would entail is daunting. Then there's the issue of Toyota Prismatic cells. You have to keep them in compression, so where would you attach the sensors?

[ogregev]

There are a couple dual-battery models out there, but they never seem to be cost effective. They're $250-$300 and the Superbrains are about $100 each.

Originally Posted by eq1

I read you can buy an adapter and be able to charge 2 packs of the same design - at the same time. Yet, it sounded like this feature was only for particular types or brands of batteries; there was a specification, but I didn't know what it meant. Do you know anything about that?

[IamIan]

Originally Posted by eq1

I read you can buy an adapter and be able to charge 2 packs of the same design - at the same time. Yet, it sounded like this feature was only for particular types or brands of batteries; there was a specification, but I didn't know what it meant. Do you know anything about that?

There are two different things you might be referring to... let me know if you are thinking of either of these two things bellow.

#1> Multi-Cell monitoring one PL8
There are several different options for this.
Basically there are adapters you can connect to both the +/- testing port and the optional Balancing port. These allow the PL8 to use a level of BMS on the battery pack it is charging / discharging / or cycling ... without using the adapters and balancing port the PL8 only sees the whole battery pack the +/- are connected to as a whole.

#2> Multiple PL8 connected in a PL8 battery testing network
This feature allows one PL8 to act as a coordinating unit among several other PL8 units... they refer to this a expansion mode... one is set to 'master' the others to slave... the PL8 internal software limit is 16 slaves per master ... but you can run multiple masters each on their own USB port each running their own PC program window ... Too many of these running simultaneously on one PC might tax the resources of the PC... I don't know of anyone off hand that has truly pushed the Expansion / Network limits.

I've attached some pictures that might also help to explain these two functions a bit more... not shown ... you can also use the expansion mode to connect two PL8s to one battery thus increasing the maximum charge or discharging abilities.

[IamIan]

Originally Posted by ogregev

There are a couple dual-battery models out there, but they never seem to be cost effective. They're $250-$300 and the Superbrains are about $100 each.

100% agree.
The vast majority of people are fine with a more basic unit.

I'm just one of the less than 1% minority.

Originally Posted by ogregev

That is the key. It isn't even worth pulling the sticks out of the pack for us. We keep them in so that we can run a fan. The extra labor it would entail is daunting. Then there's the issue of Toyota Prismatic cells. You have to keep them in compression, so where would you attach the sensors?

100% agree.
There is a significant increase in labor ... and labor is a very high priority item any time you have to pay or it.

[eq1]

Here's what I was looking at:

"Cellpro PowerLab 8 v2 EC5 Combo 2 w/ CP8S-PAR (JST PA) Adapters
Combo Contents: 1 Cellpro PowerLab 8 v2 EC5-equipped Battery Workstation with basic Cellpro adapter, 2 red/black safety banana plug-to-bare wire cable, 1 FUIM3 PC USB Interface, 2 CP8S-CP8S-PAR Safe Parallel Adapters

This combo designed to support charging 2 same-cell-count packs in parallel, packs must be Cellpro/Revolectrix type 2s-8s, one per adapter
New to REVO USA
Price: $289.95"

Cellpro PowerLab 8 (EC5 version)

[IamIan]

Originally Posted by eq1

Here's what I was looking at:

"Cellpro PowerLab 8 v2 EC5 Combo 2 w/ CP8S-PAR (JST PA) Adapters
Combo Contents: 1 Cellpro PowerLab 8 v2 EC5-equipped Battery Workstation with basic Cellpro adapter, 2 red/black safety banana plug-to-bare wire cable, 1 FUIM3 PC USB Interface, 2 CP8S-CP8S-PAR Safe Parallel Adapters

This combo designed to support charging 2 same-cell-count packs in parallel, packs must be Cellpro/Revolectrix type 2s-8s, one per adapter
New to REVO USA
Price: $289.95"

Cellpro PowerLab 8 (EC5 version)

The PowerLab8 is the core device... the rest are accessories to it.

EC5 is the modular cable connection for the power supply side ... other options come with different power supply side options... I got mine about a year ago with bare wire connections.

The banana plugs are just pretty much conventional banana plugs that allow the single output to the battery being tested to still go out but have a second connection plugged in to the same point ... it is electrically in parallel.

The "FUIM3 PC USB Interface" is what it sound like ... it's the adapter to interface with the PC via USB.

The "CP8S-CP8S-PAR Safe Parallel Adapters" is just a type of balancing connector ... it does not have to be used if you don't want to ... and you can buy other types if you wish ... etc ... it plugs into the PL8 balancing jack ... The verbage at the end of your quote is just referring to the specific restrictions of that specific balancing adapter ... not the PL8 itself ... more adapter options can be seen HERE... they are interchangeable ... unplug A and plug in B ... unplug B and plug in C ... etc... the core PL8 device can use any of them.

The idea of the specific OEM adapter is that if you happen to be using a battery pack with connection points setup a certain way already by the OEM manufacture of that battery pack ... it is easier for you to just buy the adapter that fits that OEM setup ... if the battery pack you are working with does not happen to be one of these OEM options ... then you have to wire it up yourself to each individual cell ... or skip the balancing option ... they sell the bare balancing adapter if you want to use it ... HERE.

Is that what you were asking?

[eq1]

Hmm, I was just trying to figure out if I can charge more than one stick at a time with the CellPro 8. Doesn't sound like it - it sounds like these 'parallel adapters' are just for specific types or brands of battery packs...

"Parallel Adapters: FMA has designed Safe Parallel Adapters to be used with the Cellpro PowerLab 8. Parallel adapters supports one battery pack at a time and may be daisy-chained with other Safe Parallel Adapters. Designed to support multiple parallel pack, node-plus-discharge (high current) charging applications. Multiple, on-board SMT polyfuses (automatic resetting fuses) protect the adapter and charging circuitry from damage from wrong interconnections, reverse polarity, etc. The part numbers for the standard adapters are listed below along with a list of compatible battery packs."

[IamIan]

Originally Posted by eq1

Hmm, I was just trying to figure out if I can charge more than one stick at a time with the CellPro 8. Doesn't sound like it - it sounds like these 'parallel adapters' are just for specific types or brands of battery packs...

Sorry I was not more clear before.

I think your confusing specific balancing adapters ... with what the PL8 as a unit can do ... and what other balancing adapter options you can use.

For charging 2 sticks at the same time you can do the following:

• Use the banana plug branching to charge sticks in parallel not balanced per cell or per pack.
• Use the bare wire lead balancing connector I linked to last time to connect to each cell and balance as you go ... you can connect multiple of these together if you like in parallel ... to do multiple packs in parallel... balancing is done in bulk for all the cells / packs connected in parallel.
• The the Master/Slave mode to run multiple PL8s together each of the slaves balancing to the individual cell level via it's own balancing port.

The only aspect of the specific brands thing ... is that for some RC battery packs that already have per cell level connections , you don't have to make the per cell level connections yourself ... you can use the OEM per cell level connections via the balancing adapter for that OEM battery pack.

As I linked to last time , they sell a bare wire balancing connector ... allowing you to make your own connections to the battery cells ... if the battery you are using does not happen to already come wired with one they premake for you... which is the case with the Honda Battery sticks ... which have no individual per cell level connections OEM.

The adapter used in the picture bellow can be the general bare wire connector ... it does not have to be the specific prewired OEM battery connecter.

[eq1]

Thanks for your in-depth help. Feel free to neglect my persistent questioning any time you'd like, you've gone above and beyond the 'call of duty' for sure. I'd probably be able to answer the questions better myself if I was able to download the manual from the site. Wasn't able to do that for whatever reason...

So... I get a little bit confused when I hear new things the charger can do, things I never even imagined. And then, it's all pretty new to me... For example, I didn't even think about doing cell-level charging. I've only been thinking about doing stick-level charging. The notion of "balance charging" is kind of throwing me off; I was just thinking charging is charging, now it's like 'What's this balance charging thing?' But let me take a stab at it...

With the superbrain I think I would've been able to connect 4 sticks in series (24 cells) and charge the 4 sticks at one time (maximum of 7.5A), and the charger would have treated it as one stick, one battery. I didn't want to do that because, as I understand it, doing a stick with 6 cells at a time is bad enough. All the cells are not likely to have identical characteristics, and that can pose problems, such as delta V detection, or cutoff voltage vis-a-vis cell reversal... 24 cells is 4 times worse....

So, with one CellPro8, it sounded like maybe I'd be able to charge, say 2 sticks just as I was charging one. That, in essence, the CellPro would be able to do the detection stuff separately for each stick. But perhaps that's not so. You write:

"Use the bare wire lead balancing connector I linked to last time to connect to each cell and balance as you go ... you can connect multiple of these together if you like in parallel ... to do multiple packs in parallel... balancing is done in bulk for all the cells / packs connected in parallel."

This doesn't sound like it is doing the "detection stuff" separately for each stick, but rather, "balancing is done in bulk for all the ... packs connected in parallel."

Perhaps "balancing" is equivalent to what I'm calling "detection stuff?"

Anyhow, I'll leave it at that for now...