Analyzing, refurbishing/repairing a dead hybrid battery pack (2000 Honda Insight)

[eq1]

I pulled these from the list of Honda OBDII codes I have:

P1420 Nox Adsorptive Catalyst System Efficiency Below Threshold, Catalytic
converter
P1449 Battery Module Overheating, Comprehensive
P1601 IMA System Malfunction, Comprehensive

I didn't see a "1600"... Sounds like you may be right, that you broke something like a PTC sensor... I don't know whether or not you should flip the breaker. I'd guess that the whole system isn't working now that these codes have been thrown and you're not likely to be doing damage...

[IamIan]

Originally Posted by RobH

Still not sure if I should turn off the switch on the battery untill I get time to fix.

Any thoughts?

If you turn the switch off you will want to monitor the 12V battery ... in case the system also turns off your DC-DC converter ... with that off you effectively have no alternator function and your 12V battery will go dead eventually.

feel free to do what you like ... But myself ... I would probably not bother switching the IMA battery off ... the system has it's own method of disconnecting it if it chooses to do so.

But I would try to look into the issue sooner than later ... and I would keep an eye on the 12V battery in the mean time ... in a Gen-1 Insight as long as you have 12V power you can at least drive the car.

[MetroMPG]

Originally Posted by IamIan

If you turn the switch off you will want to monitor the 12V battery ... in case the system also turns off your DC-DC converter ... with that off you effectively have no alternator function and your 12V battery will go dead eventually.

I've driven my 2000 Insight 5-spd with the IMA switch "off" for ~5000 km, so I can comment on this:

• The DC-DC converter still works, though it is quirky - it sometimes takes a while to activate after starting the engine.

• DC-DC function ceases if engine RPM exceeds ~4k, and takes ~30 seconds to resume once RPM falls below that

• When the DC-DC converter is offline, the 12v battery idiot light comes on in the instrument cluster, so it's easy to know when it's on or off.

Of course, whether this is applies to other owners depends on whether Honda's programming/logic is the same across all years/revisions and that mine represents normal functioning. May not be!



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On Monday evening, I'm giving a short presentation at the Ottawa EV group's (EVCO) meeting about my experience with the U.F.O.'s battery pack. Should be of general interest to the members with EV's & hybrids, especially the other 3 or 4 members with gen. 1 Insights.

[Formula413]

Originally Posted by MetroMPG

I've driven my 2000 Insight 5-spd with the IMA switch "off" for ~5000 km, so I can comment on this:

• The DC-DC converter still works, though it is quirky - it sometimes takes a while to activate after starting the engine.

• DC-DC function ceases if engine RPM exceeds ~4k, and takes ~30 seconds to resume once RPM falls below that

• When the DC-DC converter is offline, the 12v battery idiot light comes on in the instrument cluster, so it's easy to know when it's on or off.

Of course, whether this is applies to other owners depends on whether Honda's programming/logic is the same across all years/revisions and that mine represents normal functioning. May not be!

I'm pretty sure my Civic is different. After trying to drive the car with the switch off I can tell you I was reluctant to drive the car around the block in that condition, much less for an extended period. Basically the battery is not charged below ~1400 RPM. As you can imagine that makes it very difficult to keep the battery charging when the car idles at 750 RPM when warm. And when it was not charging voltage was sitting at around 11.6, so yeah, kinda scary. That convinced me that when I do refurbish the pack I will simply park the car, which is a luxury I have since I own two cars.

[jamesqf]

Originally Posted by MetroMPG

[*]When the DC-DC converter is offline, the 12v battery idiot light comes on in the instrument cluster, so it's easy to know when it's on or off.

The handbrake warning light (red "Brake") also lights on mine.

I have not tried driving with the IMA off, but my DC-DC converter sometimes goes off when the pack is low/unbalanced, and I do hard acceleration. The ScanGauge shows the system voltage as 12V or less, rather than the 13-14V I see when the DC-DC is working. It seldom resets by itself, though, so I have to turn the engine off and restart to reset it. But I can go at least 10 minutes or so with it off.

[MetroMPG]

Formula - too bad the Civic isn't as friendly.

Originally Posted by jamesqf

The handbrake warning light (red "Brake") also lights on mine.

Interesting. I'll have to check that on mine.

my DC-DC converter sometimes goes off when the pack is low/unbalanced, and I do hard acceleration. The ScanGauge shows the system voltage as 12V or less, rather than the 13-14V I see when the DC-DC is working. It seldom resets by itself, though, so I have to turn the engine off and restart to reset it.

I've also noticed the DC-DC periodically shuts down on its own accord, even at steady cruise, and permits battery voltage to fall. It always comes back online on its own though after a minute or two. Interestingly: it does not light the dashboard battery idiot light when this happens - I just happened to catch it on the ScanGauge.

When this happens, if I turn the headlights ON, DC-DC output immediately resumes. That last fact makes me wonder if Honda was doing some sort of "smart" output control under specific conditions (which I haven't discerned).

I've also been driving with the carpet & metal cover removed from the IMA stuff in the back of the car. I can often hear when the DC-DC stops/starts. It makes a very quiet but distinct electronic noise (not a relay) when it does. Imagine a single electronic cricket chirp, and that's about it

[Formula413]

Originally Posted by MetroMPG

I've also noticed the DC-DC periodically shuts down on its own accord, even at steady cruise, and permits battery voltage to fall. It always comes back online on its own though after a minute or two. Interestingly: it does not light the dashboard battery idiot light when this happens - I just happened to catch it on the ScanGauge.

When this happens, if I turn the headlights ON, DC-DC output immediately resumes. That last fact makes me wonder if Honda was doing some sort of "smart" output control under specific conditions (which I haven't discerned).

I've noticed that on my car the voltage seems to occasionally cycle between 14V and 12V during normal driving. I am guessing that it does this when it sees the 12V battery as charged and stops charging it. But if I put any load on it (IE headlights), just like you said it will go back to 14V.

Originally Posted by MetroMPG

I've also been driving with the carpet & metal cover removed from the IMA stuff in the back of the car. I can often hear when the DC-DC stops/starts. It makes a very quiet but distinct electronic noise (not a relay) when it does. Can't think of how to describe it.

I noticed that too, I could hear a distinct sound whenever it went into regen, like a faint high pitched hum.

[jamesqf]

Originally Posted by Formula413

I've noticed that on my car the voltage seems to occasionally cycle between 14V and 12V during normal driving. I am guessing that it does this when it sees the 12V battery as charged and stops charging it.

Mine too. My guess would be that (just like an alternator) there's a circuit to keep from overcharging the battery.

[meister_sd]

@MetroMPG
My hat is off to you, sir! This is an AMAZING thread you started and documented.

I came across this forum/thread because a client of mine has a 2000 Insight with, what he claims, is a dead battery pack and the 12v battery is dead too. His wife is telling him to sell the car and I am seriously interested in buying it but we haven't talked price. He says the blue book on it is about $6500 in working condition. When I saw you bought one with the "bad" battery pack - I would like to know what you paid for it. If you don't feel like posting it, I'd still like to hear it in a PM. His car needs a brake job as well so I'm thinking of offering him $3000 for it. The car has 73k on it.

BTW - I "hate" you for "wasting" my afternoon reading this whole thread as well as various links here. Seriously, Thank You, and the others, for a great and informative thread.

-Mike

[MetroMPG]

I'm not spilling the beans on my purchase price! But I will say that $3k for an Insight with 73K on it & a dead battery would be a very good price, based on prices I've seen since I got mine. Go for it! They're amazing cars, even with dead packs.