Anyone tried HHO on a diesel?

[naturalextraction]

As for Ron and his company, in the engineering community they are not well received. He is not to welcomed here either apparently:
http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...tang-9096.html
Toward the end of the thread they talk about the company from more recent observations. Also in a couple other engineering and scientific forums the concept of their electric-pulse alternate firing engine is pointed out as having some pretty major holes. Simply there isn't enough energy in the gasoline, regardless of the alternate firing, electric motor supplementation to have even that kind of mileage. I don't know enough or the details to make to critical a judgment. But from what information has been released on the system, I'm inclined to agree with the two communities.

I guess I don't understand where you think I am wrong. (and thank you for your politeness by the way).
In reference to what specifically? Christ and I talked about your point #1 and in what manner hydrogen is appropriated to provide any benefits related to the I.C.E. in particular.

In small amounts (how small? experimenters reports very small amounts as effective)...

Define experimenters? If your talking about Dr. Heywood and his team at MIT then there is much information to read through by searching their studies on line and through the MIT or Sloan School of Engineering sight. Cal Tech and the Sandia Labs at Livermore have also many white papers and or general information available on line related to this subject. (sorry, but to give you a bunch of links takes to much time and I've spent a bit more than I usually allow my self for forum time!)

Bottom line: as some of those in the general public with differentiating levels of education and experience make attempts to better their lives through countless "experiments" made by others who've derived at so many "conclusions" and "findings," it's become a time and labor intensive theme to get the right ideas that require the minimal amount of effort, with just a little money, to accomplish a big improvement.(in this case, economy.) Where as it has taken countless well educated (meaning going through the long years of college and university studies, undergrad work, research, etc.) scientist and engineers to bring solid information to the next level of scientist and engineers to another level and so on... to where it is now. The benefit now is the expediency in which information can be readily available for the next set. However, often only parts of this information is being extracted from individuals who do not have the years of other information related. (that information which builds the foundation for learning and understanding further expanded and developed information in all the subjects related to any one particular individuals interest.) This takes time and it takes time for anyone. But keep asking questions and search you fingers off. Learning is fun.

[Christ]

Originally Posted by naturalextraction

As for Ron and his company, in the engineering community they are not well received. He is not to welcomed here either apparently:
http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...tang-9096.html
Toward the end of the thread they talk about the company from more recent observations. Also in a couple other engineering and scientific forums the concept of their electric-pulse alternate firing engine is pointed out as having some pretty major holes. Simply there isn't enough energy in the gasoline, regardless of the alternate firing, electric motorsupplementation to have even that kind of mileage. I don't know enough or the details to make to critical a judgment. But from what information has been released on the system, I'm inclined to agree with the two communities.

I guess I don't understand where you think I am wrong. (and thank you for your politeness by the way).
In reference to what specifically? Christ and I talked about your point #1 and in what manner hydrogen is appropriated to provide any benefits related to the I.C.E. in particular.

In small amounts (how small? experimenters reports very small amounts as effective)...

Define experimenters? If your talking about Dr. Heywood and his team at MIT then there is much information to read through by searching their studies on line and through the MIT or Sloan School of Engineering sight. Cal Tech and the Sandia Labs at Livermore have also many white papers and or general information available on line related to this subject. (sorry, but to give you a bunch of links takes to much time and I've spent a bit more than I usually allow my self for forum time!)
Bottom line: as some of those in the general public with differentiating levels of education and experience make attempts to better their lives through countless "experiments" made by others who've derived at so many "conclusions" and "findings," it's become a time and labor intensive theme to get the right ideas that require the minimal amount of effort, with just a little money, to accomplish a big improvement.(in this case, economy.) Where as it has taken countless well educated (meaning going through the long years of college and university studies, undergrad work, research, etc.) scientist and engineers to bring solid information to the next level of scientist and engineers to another level and so on... to where it is now. The benefit now is theexpediency in which information can be readily available for the next set. However, often only parts of this information is being extracted from individuals who do not have the years of other information related. (that information which builds the foundation for learning and understanding further expanded and developed information in all the subjects related to any one particular individuals interest.) This takes time and it takes time for anyone. But keep asking questions and search you fingers off. Learning is fun.

I would love to sig this post... but it's too long. Darn. So true, though.

[naturalextraction]

cfg83, I couldn't get the pdf to come up. Catipillar has tried the same to no avail. So a chemist, Dan Gunnerson, (working for Cat.) patented a chemical solution that would better emulsify water and diesel for an extended period of time. This I've seen private videos on with a D-9 demonstrating the clean exhausting gasses. However, same deal, the project hasn't gone anywhere since 1999. No clue.

[Christ]

I want watery diesel!

[naturalextraction]

Yea, supposedly they cut the diesel by as much as 50%. It didn't coagulate, separate, and cause a problem in the injectors. Complete emulsification on the hydrocarbon level. I had pulled up the patent and wanted to try it myself but couldn't get two of the chemicals. Again, one of those, hmm, really? Here is some links related:
http://www.energy.wsu.edu/documents/...s/PuriNoxl.pdf

Green Car Congress: Kanagawa University Develops New Diesel Emulsion Fuel

In the site I sent you, we do the same for an I.C.E. but without the chemicals. It does work and metering has to be perfect throughout the entire rpm and load range.

[Christ]

Originally Posted by naturalextraction

Yea, supposedly they cut the diesel by as much as 50%. It didn't coagulate, separate, and cause a problem in the injectors. Complete emulsification on the hydrocarbon level. I had pulled up the patent and wanted to try it myself but couldn't get two of the chemicals. Again, one of those, hmm, really? Here is some links related:
http://www.energy.wsu.edu/documents/...s/PuriNoxl.pdf

Green Car Congress: Kanagawa University Develops New Diesel Emulsion Fuel

In the site I sent you, we do the same for an I.C.E. but without the chemicals. It does work and metering has to be perfect throughout the entire rpm and load range.

I have to ask -

If a DIY'er owned a steady speed engine that operated at nearly constant load, what would be the problem of emulsifying, say, 20% water into diesel fuel with just a few grams/liter of lecithin? (Nasty stuff, I hear)

[cfg83]

naturalextraction -

Originally Posted by naturalextraction

cfg83, I couldn't get the pdf to come up. Catipillar has tried the same to no avail. So a chemist, Dan Gunnerson, (working for Cat.) patented a chemical solution that would better emulsify water and diesel for an extended period of time. This I've seen private videos on with a D-9 demonstrating the clean exhausting gasses. However, same deal, the project hasn't gone anywhere since 1999. No clue.

Rats. I just got it to come up on Google Chrome and Internet Explorer. It's a 1.8 MB PDF with these version specs :

PDF Producer: Acrobat Distiller 8.1.0 (Windows)
PDF Version: 1.4 (Acrobat 5.x)

I have Adobe Reader 8. Anyway, here's the summary from the paper :

6.7 Summary

The effect of H2 addition, engine load, engine speed and diesel fuel flow rate on the
performance, combustion, and exhaust emissions of a 2004 Mack MD11 diesel engine has been experimentally investigated without modifying the engine control and fuel injection
strategies. Following are a brief summary based on the results obtained in this research:

• The addition of H2 into this diesel engine reduced the emissions of PM. The extent of reduction in PM emissions depended on the amount of H2 added and engine load. With the addition of H2 up to 7.5% at 10%-70% load, the maximum PM reduction of 65% to 80% were obtained. The PM emissions measured using the 13-mode emissions cycle were reduced by 17.5% and 27.5% for the H2 addition of 2% and 4%, respectively.

• When measured using the 13-mode ESC emission cycle, the addition of 2% H2 into the intake mixture was found to have negligible effect on NOx emissions. The addition of 4% H2 was shown to increase NOx emissions by 3.96%.

• The examined at low load, addition of H2 was shown to have small effect on NOx emissions with the exception of 10% load with a relatively large amount of H2 addition (>4%), which reduced the NOx emissions accompanied with a substantial deterioration in the brake thermal efficiency (-6.9%-2.9% with H2 addition of 4%-7.5%).

• When operated at medium to high load (30%-70%) operation, the addition of a small amount of H2 (<3-5%) was shown to slightly reduce the emissions of NOx. The addition of a relatively large amount of H2 (>3% for 50% load and >5% for 30% and 70% load) increased the emissions of NOx. When operated at full load, the addition of H2 was shown to have negligible effect on NOx emissions with the addition of H2 up to 5% tested in this research.

• The addition of H2 reduced substantially the emissions of CO when operated at low to medium load. When operated at high load, the addition of small amount of H2 increased the emissions of CO with its maximum value observed at 4% H2. Increasing the amount of H2 beyond 4% reduced substantially the emissions of CO. When measured using the 13-mode ESC cycle, the addition of 2% H2 into the diesel engine was shown to reduce CO emissions by 2.7%. The addition of 4% H2 increased CO emissions by 8%.

• The addition of H2 reduced the emissions of HC with the exception of 10% load operation. When operated at 10% load, the addition of H2 less than 5% had a negligible effect on the emissions of HC. The addition H2 beyond 5% reduced substantially the emissions of HC. When measured using the 13-mode ESC emission cycle, the addition of 2% H2 increased HC emissions by 8.2%. The addition of 4% H2 had a negligible effect on HC emissions.

• The addition of a relatively small amount of H2 lowered the brake thermal efficiency. The desirable positive effect of H2 in improving the brake thermal efficiency was obtained with the addition of H2 at relatively large amounts.

• The experimental data demonstrated the presence of the minimum limit to obtain a positive effect on the brake thermal efficiency. Such a limit increased with the reduction in engine load. The addition of a small amount of H2 into diesel engine was not recommended especially at low load operation.

• With the addition of 6% H2 in the intake air, the improvement to the brake thermal efficiency was found to be 1%-4% for 20%-70% load operation, which is much lower than the 14-4% improvement in the brake thermal efficiency of the 1999 Cummins ISM370 diesel engine for 15% -70% load operation.

• The exhaust emissions of H2 at low load operation could be a safety issue. The maximum H2 emission of 1.4% (dry) was obtained with the addition of 6% H2 at 10% load operation. The emissions of H2 can be dramatically reduced with the increase in engine load.

• The addition of H2 to the diesel engine was found to significantly affect the combustion process including the peak cylinder pressure, combustion phasing, and peak heat release rate. When added at large amounts under high load, a featured three-stage combustion process of H2-diesel dual fuel engine can be observed.

CarloSW2

[naturalextraction]

So it's an interesting report, with results to be expected. The same is accomplished with emulsifying the fuel with water, which is cleaner emissions. From a business stand point, for the cost of hydrogen, (and the change in combustion pressures 'within the structure of the travel and burn rate' can be a bad thing in diesels, hence part reason not utilized at lower rpm or idle nor were cause and effect, long term discussed. I also imagine they don't stick a tube in the air cleaner and have a well interfacing electronics and other controls I'm not privy to. Granted I still can't pull up the file, I get a blank page. I'd like to read everything. I'll try a different server. )
Also, apparently the findings are fairly insignificant as I can't find any one company utilizing this type of procedure on any fleet vehicle from two search engines. (still looking actually) Legitimate companies with a large fleet. Companies like that would want to take advantage of even a 3% to 5% increase in mileage providing the cost of the unit and installation has a return within their budgeted ROI on such expenditures.

There are so many regulations from so many different government implemented organizations that unless the entire package shows "significant" positive and long term benefits, they don't make any kind of market place. This is why you find so many individuals (smaller companies) trying to sell these on board units. Water is easier to carry, safer and apparently starting to make some headway into certain markets.

This was interesting, seems like some honesty in their writing anyway:
http://www.switch2hydrogen.com/h2.htm
Also this has been somewhat on going:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540...59812#30059812
This is the testing MSN tested.

[naturalextraction]

Originally Posted by Christ

I have to ask -

If a DIY'er owned a steady speed engine that operated at nearly constant load, what would be the problem of emulsifying, say, 20% water into diesel fuel with just a few grams/liter of lecithin? (Nasty stuff, I hear)

I don't know We don't use any chemicals at all. I can get decent power at 35%. Anything over 45% is inconsistent. We will have final testing of all the incorporating systems done at Sandia Labs in Livermore CA.

[naturalextraction]

Oops, posted twice.