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Old 09-17-2019, 02:05 PM   #1 (permalink)
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//// Atkinson cycle Diesel ////

Hi All,

Just recently learned how hybrid cars running an atkinson cycle engine gets more fuel mileage but I have several questions...

1) Given the "same" engine (other than the cam to alter the intake valve closing) how much more efficiency does the atkinson style of operation yield over the otto cycle engine ?

2) Has anybody tried making a diesel engine operate on the atkinson cycle? THAT would seem like the ultimate in efficiency (a diesel is more efficient to start with then using an atkinson cycle to boot ? I'm drooling at the possibilities!).

Acutally I wonder ho much a custom can costs to do that ? .... I'll research and see what I can find .... no THAT and making it into a hybrid WOW (I have access to a TDI 1.9 L ALH engine unless my buddy sells it beforehand!).

Andrew

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Old 09-17-2019, 02:43 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Best example for #1 I know of is the 2016 to 2017 Elantra, 2016 was a 1.8 liter (147 hp, 10.3:1 compression ratio) with automatic ratings of 28/37/31, 2017 they changed the stroke to make it a 2.0 and Atkinson it and makes the about the same hp/tq with 12.5:1 compression ratio and MPG ratings up to 29/38/33.

I got 49 mpg over 200 miles in my 17 Elantra just setting cruise at 57 or so.

I don't think Atkinson a diesel does any good, diesel don't run at a fixed air to fuel ratio, the reason to Atkinson a gas it is so the engine doesn't get a full cylinder of air it without having to choke it with the throttle. The above it port injected so it actually pushed some fuel/air mix back into the intake during the beginning of the combustion stroke.

Last edited by roosterk0031; 09-17-2019 at 03:01 PM..
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Old 09-17-2019, 03:08 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Diesels already rum a thermodynamic cycle optimized for efficiency and are already hybrid if they have a turbo.
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Old 09-17-2019, 06:20 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roosterk0031 View Post
Best example for #1 I know of is the 2016 to 2017 Elantra, 2016 was a 1.8 liter (147 hp, 10.3:1 compression ratio) with automatic ratings of 28/37/31, 2017 they changed the stroke to make it a 2.0 and Atkinson it and makes the about the same hp/tq with 12.5:1 compression ratio and MPG ratings up to 29/38/33.

I got 49 mpg over 200 miles in my 17 Elantra just setting cruise at 57 or so.

I don't think Atkinson a diesel does any good, diesel don't run at a fixed air to fuel ratio, the reason to Atkinson a gas it is so the engine doesn't get a full cylinder of air it without having to choke it with the throttle. The above it port injected so it actually pushed some fuel/air mix back into the intake during the beginning of the combustion stroke.
HI,

From my understanding , it's not a fuel mixture or air ratio thing that gives the atkinson engine its added efficiency but rather the added energy extraction from an effectively reduced intake charge stroke VS the longer power stroke.

I have looked into a custom camshaft earlier today and hopefully they'll be able to brew one up (long live Benedict Arnold Prius !!) ;-)

Andrew
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Old 09-25-2019, 02:53 PM   #5 (permalink)
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To my understanding, it isn't so much a added compression that gains efficiency as it is added expansion one gets with a higher static compression ratio - the added compression is really an unwanted side effect. In a gasoline engine you might run a static compression ratio of, say, 16:1, but leave the intake valves open for part of the intake stroke, so part of the charge is pushed back out. For the rest of the cycle it operates with a 16:1 ratio, just with lower cylinder pressures, much like if you were limited to only 3/4 throttle but without the throttle plate pumping losses.

If cylinder pressures weren't limited this way, early detonation of the combustion charge would be inevitable with such high compression (without super high octane fuels), and in most engines that can cause damage and negative work.

Diesels operate solely on detonation. To my knowledge, many already have compression ratios as high as 20:1 and have no need for limiting cylinder pressures. I'm less familiar with how engineers optimize them though.
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Old 09-25-2019, 04:01 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roosterk0031 View Post
the reason to Atkinson a gas it is so the engine doesn't get a full cylinder of air it without having to choke it with the throttle.
I believe the reason for the Atkinson Cycle is to use the extra expansion energy to push the piston further down, rather than fighting that extra expansion to waste it into the exhaust manifold.
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Old 09-26-2019, 10:52 PM   #7 (permalink)
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It would be interesting to try a real Atkinson approach in a Diesel engine. Otherwise, in order to emulate the Atkinson cycle like it's done on gassers, it would need such an outstanding static compression ratio as the 28:1 of the Scania dedicated-ethanol engine.
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Old 09-27-2019, 11:53 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cRiPpLe_rOoStEr View Post
in order to emulate the Atkinson cycle like it's done on gassers, it would need such an outstanding static compression ratio as the 28:1 of the Scania dedicated-ethanol engine.
Is there that much expansive power left in a diesel after the 20:1 expansion?
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Old 09-27-2019, 12:03 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Angel And The Wolf View Post
Is there that much expansive power left in a diesel after the 20:1 expansion?
Not sure if it would be enough to overcome the pumping losses.
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Old 09-27-2019, 12:22 PM   #10 (permalink)
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https://bioenergyinternational.com/s...e-applications

Didn't know anybody was making engines like that.

"According to Scania, the new ethanol engine delivers 2,150 Nm, equal to that of its diesel sibling, and the fuel consumption is also on a par with a conventional diesel engine."


With ethanol's lower energy density than diesel, would that mean it has a much higher efficiency?

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