Battery crunch coming

[sendler]

We're not talking laptops and cell phones anymore. Recycling these big automotive batteries will make sense when 1TWh per year start coming in 30-40 years from now.
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For longer trips a standardized series ICE gen on a trailer could be rented.

[jamesqf]

Originally Posted by redpoint5

Although induction charging might work for buses that run a known route and spend a decent amount of time at stops, it's just not practical for passenger vehicles.

Why do you need inductive charging for busses at all? Do it the way busses (and trains) in many European cities have been for years: A pantograph connects to overhead power wires. If you have fixed routes, you don't even need batteries; otherwise you just charge at stops.

[redpoint5]

Originally Posted by vskid3

But does it have to, or are we just seeing an early adopter premium added on until the chargers get more regular use?

I think it makes more sense to have most EVs going around with 30-40kwh batteries and plenty of places to charge for those occasional trips than to haul around a 60+kwh battery just in case you want to make a trip (which you'll still probably need to charge on any decent trip anyway). It's because of the lack of chargers that a larger battery is needed or wanted to help with reducing range anxiety.

Perhaps fast charging costs are at a premium due to how new they are, but they do cost more than L2 chargers. Not only do they cost more to build (1-time cost), but they also have to pay demand charges, which are an additional monthly cost in addition to the amount of electricity consumed.

Originally Posted by jamesqf

Why do you need inductive charging for busses at all? Do it the way busses (and trains) in many European cities have been for years: A pantograph connects to overhead power wires. If you have fixed routes, you don't even need batteries; otherwise you just charge at stops.

I was just thinking that it's more likely we get overhead power lines that our cars connect to than inductive charging.

[oil pan 4]

If lithium batteries last 10+ years and there is some mandate forcing most cars to use them.
Where are the used batteries for these new cars going to come from?
Then if the plant is located on the left Coast it will cost a hazardous freight charge to ship the used batteries cross county for most locations, where is that money going to come from?

It would be nice but I don't really see it happening.

[sendler]

Construction on Gigafactory 1 seems to have stalled since August. And why is there not a single solar panel in sight yet?
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https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-giga...uction-update/
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[oil pan 4]

As far as I can tell the price of batteries hasn't come down at all.

[ME_Andy]

There are some solar panels on the Gigafactory now. That article was from January. Try this--
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.tes...top-array/amp/

[Isaac Zackary]

Originally Posted by sendler

Do we have enough Lithium? Cobalt?

Maybe I'll find it again. But according to a recent report, there is enough lithium that's already found to replace every single vehicle in the whole world with a Tesla and still have plenty of lithium left over.

Originally Posted by redpoint5

It seems silly to have battery backup for the home. Excess solar can be sold back to the grid, so that negates the need for storing excess production.

The idea of battery storage is to move completely off of coal, nuclear, etc. and to move to renewables. If there is no way to store energy from wind and solar then they are only good when there is sun or wind.

Originally Posted by JockoT

Never mind the batteries and the Lithium. What about the mains electricity to charge them all? Bye bye hydrocarbons, hello nuclear.

Of course the future is unclear. But theoretically, the same battery technology being developed for EV's will also help energy storage. Solar panels are at an all time low price and are expected to get even lower. If a cheap way to store solar comes about then solar could be the cheapest way to make electricity. In other words, if there ever is an EV revolution, it could mean a solar revolution as well.

Originally Posted by redpoint5

I'm still against chemical storage. Seems it would be more efficient to use pumped hydro or other potential kinetic energy storage such as your railcar suggestion.

How efficient is decomposing water into H2? This is one of the few chemical storage solutions I could see being practical.

H2 is terribly inefficient. Hydro storage takes up lots of land and returns very little. A better alternative right now would be flywheel storage. But supposedly as EV technology progresses, the technology will be much cheaper and available for other purposes, such as grid storage.

Originally Posted by oil pan 4

Yes save the world by strip mining it for battery materials.

Agreed. There is no perfect answer. I may sound like I'm advocating lithium ion technology for every use imaginable. But in reality, with so much propaganda from every angle, who knows what's best for the environment other than banning vehicular travel altogether.

Originally Posted by MorphDaCivic

Also what about the super capacitor cars?

If only they were cheaper and held more energy. Still, super caps technology is in the same race as lithium ion. Who knows what the next discovery will be. If someone finally figures out a cheap way to manufacture graphene the future could be super capacitor batteries instead of chemical ones.

Originally Posted by sendler

Better streamlining and smaller frontal area will help reduce battery requirements. But I don't see anyone headed anywhere near there yet. As a matter of fact, many of the new concepts are full size crossovers.

I know, right? It just goes to show that the economy is not based on what is best for society or the environment. It's based on a market to sell and make money. Most people still think 30mpg is great fuel mileage.

Originally Posted by redpoint5

If a person regularly needs to travel more than the range of an EV, then it's the wrong tool for the job. It costs much more than gasoline to quick charge an EV, and it takes much longer to "refuel", and you have to stop more frequently.

Yes, but what range would that be? I've done several 140 mile daily trips in my Leaf. I drive 70 miles to work, let it charge off L2, then drive back home.

[RedDevil]

I wouldn't need a big range. I'm eyeballing used Leafs and the Ioniq electric. The very few times my drive goes past their range I'd need a stop along the way anyway.

A relatively large amount of our cars are plugins or EVs (maybe 1 or 2%) and the charging infrastructure reflects it. Almost any car park has charging points. It ceases to be an issue.
When the majority of cars get electrified then charging points will be as common as lamp posts...