Go Back   EcoModder Forum > EcoModding > Hybrids
Register Now
 Register Now
 

Reply  Post New Thread
 
Submit Tools LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 05-23-2016, 11:22 AM   #11 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
Ecky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Vermont
Posts: 3,690

Gaptooth (retired) - '00 Honda Insight
Team Honda
Gen-1 Insights
90 day: 54.26 mpg (US)

Such Fit - '07 Honda Fit Sport
90 day: 41.27 mpg (US)

Connect - '15 Ford Transit Connect XL
90 day: 20.13 mpg (US)

K-sight - '00 Honda K-sight
90 day: 38.58 mpg (US)
Thanks: 1,427
Thanked 1,550 Times in 978 Posts
Concept-checking question: How is this system supposed to improve fuel economy?

Is this system more efficient at generating 12v than a traditional alternator?

I could also see recapturing a little energy with regenerative braking, but most drivers will probably capture 10% or less. It may or may not be worth the added weight.

Auto-stop can help, but it's not necessary to hybridize a car to get this feature.

Honda's mild hybrids downsize the engine while maintaining around the same power to improve economy. I could also see keeping the same engine-size but changing the gearing and using the hybrid motor to prevent downshifts in order to help economy, but simply adding a motor/generator to an existing engine/transmission should do very little for either city or highway driving.

  Reply With Quote
Alt Today
Popular topics

Other popular topics in this forum...

   
Old 05-23-2016, 05:50 PM   #12 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
GreenHornet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Oregon
Posts: 429
Thanks: 41
Thanked 108 Times in 68 Posts
This system improves fuel economy in a number of ways.

#1. Stop/Start capability which eliminates idling time prone to non hybrid cars.

#2. Used for low speed short distance driving whenever you can turn off the ICE and utilize an electric motor for propulsion you will be more efficient. A Gas engine at its best is 28% efficient vs an BLDC electric motor at over 90% efficiency. This type of motor has only 1 moving part compare that to an ICE. Then factor in the environmental aspect and pollution. There are other reasons why an electric motor makes more sense. ICE vehicles have there place but the vast majority of people living in and around Metro areas could absolutely do away with them completely.

#3. BLDC motors have the ability with the correct motor controller to utilize regenerative breaking. However without using ultracaps for harvesting this energy you will not gain very much back into your batteries. If ultracaps are used then you can capture upwards of 50% which then starts to get more attractive.

Honda could have downsized the engine even further to a .6L powerplant that they use in there Kei cars if they wanted to turbocharge the gas engine. Along with a little more capable lithium pack and E-motor you would have an extremely frugal Insight. Or better yet take an AC20 motor attach to manual transmission with 144V Curtis Controller and then use a very small like 200cc or less gas powered genset and you have a very fuel efficient set up for urban areas.

Adding a motor/generator to an existing engine if done correctly can make substantial improvements to fuel economy. There are a lot of factors however that play into it which also make it difficult for the average Joe to get correct. Car engineers have trouble getting it correct and they spend all day trying to figure it out and trying to find that winning combination. Can an average Joe do it? Yes it has been done with varied degrees of success.

Hybrid systems will be standard equipment with in the next 30 years due to emissions standards. They will have to find creative ways to downsize ICE without sacrificing power to help meet emissions standards. The E-motor is the best answer to this problem.

GH
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2016, 12:17 AM   #13 (permalink)
EV convert
 
oil pan 4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: NewMexico (USA)
Posts: 8,222

Sub - '84 Chevy Diesel Suburban C10
SUV
90 day: 19.5 mpg (US)

camaro - '85 Chevy Camaro Z28

Riot - '03 Kia Rio POS
Team Hyundai
90 day: 30.21 mpg (US)

Bug - '01 VW Beetle GLSturbo
90 day: 26.43 mpg (US)

Sub2500 - '86 GMC Suburban C2500
90 day: 11.95 mpg (US)

Snow flake - '11 Nissan Leaf SL
SUV
90 day: 124.63 mpg (US)
Thanks: 187
Thanked 2,670 Times in 2,089 Posts
I don't see how liquid is going to be used to cool the stator windings. Be better off ducting in cool out side air.
__________________
1984 chevy suburban, custom made 6.5L diesel turbocharged with a Garrett T76 and Holset HE351VE, 22:1 compression 13psi of intercooled boost.
1989 firebird mostly stock. Aside from the 6-speed manual trans, corvette gen 5 front brakes, 1LE drive shaft, 4th Gen disc brake fbody rear end.
2011 leaf SL, white, portable 240v CHAdeMO, trailer hitch, new batt as of 2014.
  Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to oil pan 4 For This Useful Post:
Xist (12-29-2019)
Old 05-24-2016, 08:18 AM   #14 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
Ecky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Vermont
Posts: 3,690

Gaptooth (retired) - '00 Honda Insight
Team Honda
Gen-1 Insights
90 day: 54.26 mpg (US)

Such Fit - '07 Honda Fit Sport
90 day: 41.27 mpg (US)

Connect - '15 Ford Transit Connect XL
90 day: 20.13 mpg (US)

K-sight - '00 Honda K-sight
90 day: 38.58 mpg (US)
Thanks: 1,427
Thanked 1,550 Times in 978 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenHornet View Post
This system improves fuel economy in a number of ways.

#1. Stop/Start capability which eliminates idling time prone to non hybrid cars.

#2. Used for low speed short distance driving whenever you can turn off the ICE and utilize an electric motor for propulsion you will be more efficient. A Gas engine at its best is 28% efficient vs an BLDC electric motor at over 90% efficiency. This type of motor has only 1 moving part compare that to an ICE. Then factor in the environmental aspect and pollution. There are other reasons why an electric motor makes more sense. ICE vehicles have there place but the vast majority of people living in and around Metro areas could absolutely do away with them completely.

#3. BLDC motors have the ability with the correct motor controller to utilize regenerative breaking. However without using ultracaps for harvesting this energy you will not gain very much back into your batteries. If ultracaps are used then you can capture upwards of 50% which then starts to get more attractive.

Honda could have downsized the engine even further to a .6L powerplant that they use in there Kei cars if they wanted to turbocharge the gas engine. Along with a little more capable lithium pack and E-motor you would have an extremely frugal Insight. Or better yet take an AC20 motor attach to manual transmission with 144V Curtis Controller and then use a very small like 200cc or less gas powered genset and you have a very fuel efficient set up for urban areas.

Adding a motor/generator to an existing engine if done correctly can make substantial improvements to fuel economy. There are a lot of factors however that play into it which also make it difficult for the average Joe to get correct. Car engineers have trouble getting it correct and they spend all day trying to figure it out and trying to find that winning combination. Can an average Joe do it? Yes it has been done with varied degrees of success.

Hybrid systems will be standard equipment with in the next 30 years due to emissions standards. They will have to find creative ways to downsize ICE without sacrificing power to help meet emissions standards. The E-motor is the best answer to this problem.

GH
1) Other manufacturers have stop-start systems that don't require hybridizing the car; it's simply a matter of having a more robust starter.

2) Ultimately, that energy being used by the electric motor comes from the 28% efficient gasoline engine, but it needs the additional conversion of mechanical to electrical, storage in a battery, then back to mechanical energy, which is somewhat lossy. I'm not saying driving all-electric at low-speeds is a bad idea (quite the opposite), just that I'm skeptical of the viability of a belt drive motor that must still spin the engine's crankshaft as a very good way of doing it.

3) Regenerative braking that captures fewer percent of your kinetic energy than is added by additional mass to the vehicle is counterproductive. I'm not saying it does, but this is a factor.

A high-revving 0.6L would almost certainly deliver worse economy than the current 1.0L lean burn engine in the Insight. Below a certain point, downsizing an engine starts to have the opposite effect on economy, because you start needing to rev it up to make the same power. I'm not sure where boost falls into this, but if it's necessary to run rich when in boost (is it?) that would also be a factor. Cruising along at 70mph in 5th gear, the Insight has virtually no power to spare, it's nearly WoT, and when cruising at lower speeds, it leans out the AFR to is lean as 25:1 to keep the throttle plate almost completely open.

I'm not saying a smaller displacement motor couldn't work, just that you need to be mindful of avoiding revving it up.

I agree that hybrid systems will be standard, but they're probably going to be bolted onto downsized motors and allow for the engine to be decoupled from the drivetrain, rather than keeping the same displacement and needing to continue pumping air through the cylinders while the electric motor is providing power.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2019, 01:20 AM   #15 (permalink)
Cyborg ECU
 
California98Civic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Coastal Southern California
Posts: 5,265

Black and Green - '98 Honda Civic DX Coupe
Team Honda
90 day: 59.78 mpg (US)

Black and Red - '00 Nashbar Custom built eBike
90 day: 3671.43 mpg (US)
Thanks: 1,878
Thanked 1,572 Times in 1,069 Posts
BAS system in operation (Saturn Vue)

Here's a pretty good video the BAS system being tested in a shop. You can hear them testing different scenarios as you watch the belts turn. But looking at the comments, it seems like the system is kind of glitchy. It seems like the tensioner allows a lot of slippage on the belt. Seems frustrating to maintain.

__________________


See my car's mod & maintenance thread and my electric bicycle's thread for ongoing projects. I will rebuild Black and Green over decades as parts die, until it becomes a different car of roughly the same shape and color. My minimum fuel economy goal is 55 mpg while averaging posted speed limits. I generally top 60 mpg. See also my Honda manual transmission specs thread.

  Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to California98Civic For This Useful Post:
Xist (12-29-2019)
Old 12-29-2019, 08:38 AM   #16 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
teoman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Istanbul
Posts: 1,148

A3 - '12 Audi A3
Thanks: 58
Thanked 191 Times in 158 Posts
Green Hornet, any updates to your project?
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-2020, 03:09 AM   #17 (permalink)
EcoModding Apprentice
 
Join Date: May 2019
Location: California
Posts: 244

HyBro - '08 Chevy Tahoe HY2
90 day: 22.95 mpg (US)
Thanks: 0
Thanked 37 Times in 35 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by teoman View Post
Green Hornet, any updates to your project?
that would be cool if he figured out how to get it working
I would like to have a Super hybrid


two hybrids are better then one I have the space in the rear anyways for an extra battery


also would this throw the engine timing off?? as I would be able to connect one of these Directly to the Crank shaft (obviously externally ) where the A/C compressor would normally go "it has a spot for it"

that little motor could help in a V4-deceleration fuel cutoff...... by coasting longer or acceleration boost.... that is where the MPG is weak on the lower speeds 35 or less
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2020, 01:50 AM   #18 (permalink)
It's all about Diesel
 
cRiPpLe_rOoStEr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Porto Alegre, Rio Grande do Sul, Brazil
Posts: 7,446
Thanks: 0
Thanked 767 Times in 677 Posts
Combining that to a CVT, it might be a great way to keep an engine at its best RPM range throughout most of the driving cycles.

  Reply With Quote
Reply  Post New Thread


Thread Tools




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.5.2
All content copyright EcoModder.com