Best Used Plug In Hybrid

[JSH]

Originally Posted by Hersbird

I think the success of the Rav4 Prime shows Toyota should have been doing more plug in hybrids all along. There should definitely have been a Highlander Prime and there should be a Sienna Prime at the minimum. Now with a possible $10,000 point of sale credit on the radar they wouldn't even have to make non-plug in versions or in the case of the Highlander, a non-hybrid version at all.

The success of the RAV4 Prime shows Toyota should have made performance hybrids a long time ago. There is no reason to saddle PHEVs with weak motors. The promise of electrification is performance AND economy in the same vehicle.

302 hp, 0 to 60 mph in 5.4 seconds, 38 mph in gas mode.


Why does the Prius Prime struggle to get to 60 mph in 11 seconds !?!

[rmay635703]

Originally Posted by JSH

The success of the RAV4 Prime shows Toyota should have made performance
Why does the Prius Prime struggle to get to 60 mph in 11 seconds !?!

Toyota’s goal was to make the Prime be at cost parity with any other economy car so sacrifices were needed.

Sort of like the Prius AWD has a 6hp rear motor

Rumor also has it that Toyota’s battery is “a limiting factor “ as well

Toyota’s lack of real interest is because they are behind on battery tech and can’t make mainstream plug ins profitably

If you want an earful about why Toyota’s approach is the only valid one and everyone else so far is wrong contact internal Prius expert and advocate john1701a (he is easy to find)

[JSH]

Originally Posted by rmay635703

Toyota’s goal was to make the Prime be at cost parity with any other economy car so sacrifices were needed.

Then Honda came out with two motor hybrids that were quick, efficient, and cheaper.

Honda Insight: 0-60 7.3 seconds, 52 mpg, and $23,000
Toyota Prius: 0-60 9.8 seconds, 52 mpg and $24,500

The Honda is faster, cheaper, and better looking

Originally Posted by rmay635703

Toyota’s lack of real interest is because they are behind on battery tech and can’t make mainstream plug ins profitably

Toyota has two joint ventures with Panasonic - they have plenty of battery tech. However, they aren't willing to sacrifice profitability to make EVs and they don't have to. They were able to hit EU 95 g/km CO2 fleet average without selling a bunch of EVs. Toyota has not been shy about their plan continue to make hybrids and PHEVs while battery prices continue to fall to the point were EVs are as profitable as ICE cars.

[redpoint5]

Originally Posted by rmay635703

Toyota’s goal was to make the Prime be at cost parity with any other economy car so sacrifices were needed.

They could have more easily accomplished that by putting a 16 kWh battery in it, since the added cost is way more than offset by the federal tax credits. That size battery allows higher performance too.

Toyota’s lack of real interest is because they are behind on battery tech and can’t make mainstream plug ins profitably

I doubt that. They announced a plan to have solid state batteries in production vehicles in 2025.

While I speculate about offering a 16 kWh "Prime" version of everything, Toyota is expert in developing cars people want and making a profit.

[elhigh]

Originally Posted by JSH

The Honda is faster, cheaper, and better looking

I have to assume that at some point Honda spent a few R&D dollars on the BMS in their cars? They went with a too-small battery and too-aggressive BMS in my Civic and it was consistently falling out of calibration, needing lots of active intervention to keep it usable. I'm still leery of Honda hybrids.

To the point of the question, I'd have to +1 the Volt if you don't need lots of height or interior space. The Gen2 has pretty good EV range; my son reports being able to drive all the way from his house to mine and back again - over 40 miles - and the engine never turn on at all in his Gen1; the Gen2 goes even longer.

Just be advised that the roofline is uncomfortably low on the Volt if you're tall, and the rear seat is downright cramped. If you're just looking for something that gets you back and forth, the Volt is your EV huckleberry that you can also just jump in and drive without a care.

[JSH]

Originally Posted by elhigh

I have to assume that at some point Honda spent a few R&D dollars on the BMS in their cars? They went with a too-small battery and too-aggressive BMS in my Civic and it was consistently falling out of calibration, needing lots of active intervention to keep it usable. I'm still leery of Honda hybrids.

What year was your Civic Hybrid? I know they had issued with the first gen with NiMH batteries. There was a class action settlement for the issue. I haven't heard of any issues with the Li-Ion hybrids.

[rmay635703]

Modern Honda Hybrids/plug ins use Chevies Voltec drivetrain

[elhigh]

Originally Posted by JSH

What year was your Civic Hybrid? I know they had issued with the first gen with NiMH batteries. There was a class action settlement for the issue. I haven't heard of any issues with the Li-Ion hybrids.

Mine was '03, first-gen HCH. I got it used so no class action settlement was going to reach me. It had a manual and was an absolute camel on long highway trips, I had a few tanks go over 700 miles between fills. I concluded early on that people complaining about low fuel economy results in the HCH were driving it wrong.

Going up the Blue Ridge Parkway the car hit a sweet spot that saw the fuel mileage computer climb past 60mpg and just keep going - I had made NO fuel economy mods to the car.

[Vwbeamer]

I owned a 2013 C-Max energi. It had about 32K on it when I got it and I sold it with around 62K on it. It was an off lease when I got it and I don't believe it had ever been plugged in, going by the history shown on the dash display, which will show total EV miles. I think a lot of companies leased these just for the tax credit.

The reason I sold it was the transmission was making a noise. This was common on the 2013. there was a bearing that was undersized or didn't get enough lube IIRC. The car was under warranty, but I didn't want to mess with the dealer. They fixed the problem in the 2014 and later cars.



Pros-
Peppy acceleration. with the electric and gas motor, it's 220 ish HP IIRC.
Handles great, rides nice, super quiet.
I got 42-44 mpg around town and 38-39 on highway. Once you go past 70mpg it really starts sucking the gas down.
I could get 20-25 miles EV range, even after 50K miles, but like I said, I don't think the battery pack had been used much, and I never used the battery when the outside temps got in the 90's.
The energi's are usually loaded with all the bells and whistles.

Cons-
No storage, because of how they put the battery in. The back seat folds flat, but that didn't help much.

The Ford dealers suck. I have no doubt they can fix a F150, but there so few of these, they don't know anything about them.. I had to call the Ford hybrid divivsion and have them call the local dealer to get the center stack loaded with the correct plug in EV software. The sync system never worked correctly. Later models maybe better.

Car is hard on tires. I guess because it has small tires and is pretty heavy. Mine had Michelin energy tires, and the was worn out ay 50K. I had the same tires on my Tdi and they went 80K.

I wouldn't buy another, but it wasn't terrible. I never fell in love with it, but it was fun at times.

I would shy away from a 2013.

I paid 12K for mine in 2016

[broski499]

Originally Posted by Vwbeamer

I owned a 2013 C-Max energi. It had about 32K on it when I got it and I sold it with around 62K on it. It was an off lease when I got it and I don't believe it had ever been plugged in, going by the history shown on the dash display, which will show total EV miles. I think a lot of companies leased these just for the tax credit.

The reason I sold it was the transmission was making a noise. This was common on the 2013. there was a bearing that was undersized or didn't get enough lube IIRC. The car was under warranty, but I didn't want to mess with the dealer. They fixed the problem in the 2014 and later cars.



Pros-
Peppy acceleration. with the electric and gas motor, it's 220 ish HP IIRC.
Handles great, rides nice, super quiet.
I got 42-44 mpg around town and 38-39 on highway. Once you go past 70mpg it really starts sucking the gas down.
I could get 20-25 miles EV range, even after 50K miles, but like I said, I don't think the battery pack had been used much, and I never used the battery when the outside temps got in the 90's.
The energi's are usually loaded with all the bells and whistles.

Cons-
No storage, because of how they put the battery in. The back seat folds flat, but that didn't help much.

The Ford dealers suck. I have no doubt they can fix a F150, but there so few of these, they don't know anything about them.. I had to call the Ford hybrid divivsion and have them call the local dealer to get the center stack loaded with the correct plug in EV software. The sync system never worked correctly. Later models maybe better.

Car is hard on tires. I guess because it has small tires and is pretty heavy. Mine had Michelin energy tires, and the was worn out ay 50K. I had the same tires on my Tdi and they went 80K.

I wouldn't buy another, but it wasn't terrible. I never fell in love with it, but it was fun at times.

I would shy away from a 2013.

I paid 12K for mine in 2016

This is super helpful. With how crazy prices of used cars are right now I'm just going to wait. My 2008 Prius just hit 100,000 miles so it still has quite a bit of life left in it.

Most of the C-Max Energis I've seen are 2015 and newer. The storage isn't a huge issue. Any chance you know how well two car seats fit in the back seats?

Some have recommended the Volt but that would be too small for me. Have two littles and need easy access for car seats.

My daily commute is super short under 4 miles so any plug in hybrid will have enough battery range for me to get there and back and still have power.