Blade Runner Redux - Tesla Cybertruck!

[redpoint5]

Originally Posted by RedDevil

There is little to be learned from doing the same thing over again while trying to optimize the processes involved. The processes might get better, but there's little to gain.

There's a lot to be learned from going radically different.
Even if the Cybertruck would not be the success Tesla hopes it to be, what they've learned will put them ahead of anyone else, or further ahead than today for that matter.

That's the best description of the liberal / conservative dichotomy. Doing things the proven way is safe and conservative. Innovation is risky and likely to fail because most ideas are worse than the established ones, but continuous improvement is necessary and the potential for reward is great. It's the liberal mindset. The thing is, once something new has been proven better over time, it becomes the domain of the conservative.

[JSH]

Originally Posted by ldjessee00

Even if Tesla's cost for materials and spreading the cost over a million cars (which they have not made yet) it comes to a $1000 each, that still does not account for all the TIME taken to let the paint dry/bake... and then again for the clear... That time has to be a huge delay when if you could skip it and with no other savings, the savings would be getting cars out faster.

Tesla does not have cars sitting in dealer lots (where most other cars are just picked from what is available). Tesla customers predominantly get their cars to order, so delays in manufacturing means delay in getting paid for all the material just spent to build that car.

Is that delay waiting for paint offset the additional cost for the stainless steel outerbody/frame? We will see in a couple of years.

Skipping paint doesn't save any time. Cars are built in a continuous process. The body-in-white starts at one end of the line and a finished vehicle comes off the other end every few minutes. Once the line is full the number of stations doesn't change the build rate. An assembly line without paint would just be a little bit shorter.

It varies from plant to plant but you are looking at about 2-4 hours to build a car from when it starts the line at one end to when rolls off as a finished product on the other end. A car has about 30 man hours in the vehicle (Body in white, paint, and final assembly combined.)

Here is a pretty good video of the process. This is the Mercedes plant in Bremen, Germany. 400,000 vehicle per year, 12,500 employees, 11 different models. (All based on the MRA platform that underpins the C, E, GLC, and GLE.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6c_Zs5DG0s

[redpoint5]

Always appreciate the expert comments JSH.

My understanding of manufacturing comes form the silicon wafer industry. Every process has a bottleneck, or some limiting factor that doesn't allow for increased production rates. At my particular place of employment, that was the double-side polish process.

Anyhow, any extra step adds cost, a bit of time, and the potential for problems. In the silicon wafer world, each step involves a certain percent of "breakage". Perhaps the reject rate for unpainted body panels will be lower than the reject rate for painted panels. I've got no idea if it's a more cost effective production strategy, but it's going to be neat to see the experiment. I wonder if Munro has enough expertise to evaluate the efficiency of that manufacturing process?

[freebeard]

Anyhow, any extra step adds cost, a bit of time, and the potential for problems. In the silicon wafer world, each step involves a certain percent of "breakage".

Breakage? Or, a certain percentage just don't have the magic smoke — yield rate.

You want any extra steps to happen on the assembly line, not in the courts.
inhabitat.com: Tesla hit with $86K fine for violating emission standards in California 04/04/2019

The Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) led the charge against Tesla, inspecting the manufacturing site with help from the Department of Toxic Substances Control and Bay Area Air Quality Management. The [three!] organizations found that Tesla failed to properly handle waste that should have been deemed toxic.

According to Gizmodo, Tesla is now following proper protocols in the disposal of toxic waste. In the settlement, the car company agreed to pay off a $31,000 fine and purchase new equipment for local firefighters worth around $55,000. In total, Tesla forked over around $86,000 in fines.
....
The settlement further revealed that Tesla failed to dispose of solvents and paints that were flammable. This includes not labeling waste and failing to properly secure containers. The company also did not adequately store and label waste that was toxic in nature. The EPA marked Tesla for not having enough space in waste management areas as well.

This is unfortunately not the first time Tesla has faced environmental violations....

[redpoint5]

Originally Posted by freebeard

Breakage? Or, a certain percentage just don't have the magic smoke — yield rate.

You want any extra steps to happen on the assembly line, not in the courts.
inhabitat.com: Tesla hit with $86K fine for violating emission standards in California 04/04/2019

Breakage happened at all steps, cause silicon wafers are fragile, machines go out of tolerance, and people are clumsy. I used "breakage" in quotes to imply yield loss too. Perhaps flatness was out of spec, and the wafer goes to repolish... if it doesn't make spec before it gets too thin, it gets scrapped. Even if it doesn't get scrapped, putting a product back through a process consumes resources (human time, machine time, energy, chemicals...) and represents a loss.

Funny the bay area complaining about Tesla's hazardous substances when they don't mind human waste classified as a biohazard on the sidewalks. There's no money in cleaning up that, though. Tesla needs to abide by regulatory laws, joking aside.

It seemed crazy to me that Tesla chose among the highest cost, highest red-tape area to open up shop.

[JSH]

Originally Posted by redpoint5

... Perhaps the reject rate for unpainted body panels will be lower than the reject rate for painted panels. I've got no idea if it's a more cost effective production strategy, but it's going to be neat to see the experiment. I wonder if Munro has enough expertise to evaluate the efficiency of that manufacturing process?

My experience is the opposite. Unpainted panels are very easy to scratch and difficult to repair. Painted panels you can usually just buff the clear coat. For deeper scratches you have to repaint but it is MUCH easier to blend a painted surface than an unpainted.

[redpoint5]

Originally Posted by JSH

My experience is the opposite. Unpainted panels are very easy to scratch and difficult to repair. Painted panels you can usually just buff the clear coat. For deeper scratches you have to repaint but it is MUCH easier to blend a painted surface than an unpainted.

Scotch Brite was mentioned as a cosmetic repair for SS.

Scratching aside, I'm just wondering if you get a higher first-run production yield from the unpainted SS than painted body parts.

I'd want a used Cybertruck so that I don't feel bad putting the first scratch in it. Then I'd use it to crawl through overgrown logging roads.

[NeilBlanchard]

Another cost savings of stainless steel - is you don't need to account for loss of strength due to rust.

So, no paint weight, and less steel weight, too.

[freebeard]

In the 1920s Buckminster Fuller specced 'vacuum glass panels' for his Dymaxion house. Now Tesla are patenting technology that implements this:

electrek.co: Tesla has new glass technology for noise reduction, temperature control, and more

[redpoint5]

Cabin heating is free in an ICE because it uses waste heat. There's little incentive to have a thermally efficient space in a conventional vehicle, but it becomes more important in an EV, since heating is not accomplished with waste heat. I could see insulation becoming more important in an EV both for heating efficiency and for isolating road noise, which is more pronounced when it isn't somewhat masked by engine noise. Also, the extra weight penalty of insulation in an EV does little to affect overall range or efficiency since much of the energy spent to accelerate the weight is regenerated when slowing down.