Go Back   EcoModder Forum > EcoModding > General Efficiency Discussion
Register Now
 Register Now
 

Reply  Post New Thread
 
Submit Tools LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 06-26-2019, 11:02 AM   #1 (permalink)
Batman Junior
 
MetroMPG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: 1000 Islands, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 22,515

Blackfly - '98 Geo Metro
Team Metro
Last 3: 70.09 mpg (US)

MPGiata - '90 Mazda Miata
90 day: 52.71 mpg (US)

Even Fancier Metro - '14 Mitsubishi Mirage top spec
90 day: 70.75 mpg (US)

Appliance car - '14 Mitsubishi Mirage ES (base)
90 day: 52.48 mpg (US)
Thanks: 4,062
Thanked 6,960 Times in 3,604 Posts
Brother got a 2012 Scion/Toyota Xb 5-speed. Saw 37 mpg city in it.






My brother just replaced his trashed 2005 Nissan X-trail 5-speed (predecessor to the Rogue, not sold in the States) with this Xb.

The X-trail had 317k km (197k miles), was facing multiple big repairs, was starting to rust out, and had terrible battle scars from a winter-time incident with a innocouos-looking small tree on the side of his road:




He originally got the X-trail because he wanted a boxy utility hatchback for his part-time HVAC jobs, and "needed" AWD on his sometimes un-plowed and/or icy road.

But after seeing how many of the neighbours manage just fine in the winter with FWD cars and good winter tires, he dropped the AWD "requirement". Thus the Xb, and other cars like it, became an option.

The change in vehicles is a decent fuel economy improvement:

The Nissan's NRCAN (post-2008 EPA similar) ratings are:
  • city: 12.2 L/100 km = 19 mpg
  • highway: 9.5 L/100 km = 25 mpg
The Scion's EPA ratings are:
  • city: 10.7 L/100 km = 22 mpg
  • highway: 8.7 L/100 km = 27 mpg
(Interestingly, the manual and automatic Xb have identical city/hwy ratings. Regardless, we all know the manual will trounce the automatic in the real world.)

Mods & ecomods

This Xb has aftermarket steamroller tires on air-blender wheels, likely hurting MPG. But it's also lowered and has a warm air intake, which is probably helping a little.

What's definitely NOT helping are the fashion-statement roof racks! My brother agrees with me in theory, but hasn't yet found the 2 minutes of free time to remove them. I told him they'll probably cost him 1-2 extra tanks of fuel a year in his typical usage (mostly highway) to project that faux-sporty lifestyle.

MPG potential:




I ran the Xb through my ecodriving coaching city loop and saw 6.4 L/100 km = 37 mpg US reported on the factory gauge... in pretty ideal conditions. (Mild weather, warmed-up drivetrain, light traffic.)

No especially fancy driving techniques used: just avoiding rushing into avoidable stops/slowdowns, upshifting to top gear as soon as practical, neutral coasting and DFCO where appropriate. I shut the engine off at 2 long stop lights.


When we took his 2005 X-trail through the same loop in 2014, I squeezed 31 mpg from it with similar (normal) ecodriving techniques. (34 MPG when repeated with some engine-off coasting.)



On the highway he saw a reported 6.6 = 36 mpg by setting the cruise on his typical commute (80 km/h = 50 mph rural roads).



What's it like to drive?

It feels like the height of automotive refinement, coming from my irksome Metro!

The shift quality sucks though. Shifter feel is very clicky-plasticky. I've seen this in several other manual Toyota cars (Matrix) of this era. The clutch pedal seems to have an especially long travel, but maybe that's just me, used to the Metro.

TONS of rear seat room. I can't remember the last car I sat in with this much leg room.

From an eco-driving perspective, the engine seems very content to tool around in 5th gear at as low as 25 mph on the level.

It's got the same engine as our dad's Camry; essentially this is a Camry in a box. It should serve my brother well for many more hundreds of thousands of km, provided he can avoid the trees jumping out at him!

Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	xb-f.jpg
Views:	269
Size:	44.4 KB
ID:	26274   Click image for larger version

Name:	xb-r.jpg
Views:	387
Size:	64.6 KB
ID:	26275   Click image for larger version

Name:	$_59.JPG
Views:	265
Size:	88.2 KB
ID:	26276   Click image for larger version

Name:	xb-fe.jpg
Views:	242
Size:	43.9 KB
ID:	26277  
__________________
Project MPGiata! Mods for getting 50+ MPG from a 1990 Miata
Honda mods: Ecomodding my $800 Honda Fit 5-speed beater
Mitsu mods: 70 MPG in my ecomodded, dirt cheap, 3-cylinder Mirage.
Ecodriving test: Manual vs. automatic transmission MPG showdown



EcoModder
has launched a forum for the efficient new Mitsubishi Mirage
www.MetroMPG.com - fuel efficiency info for Geo Metro owners
www.ForkenSwift.com - electric car conversion on a beer budget
  Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to MetroMPG For This Useful Post:
Ecky (06-27-2019), mpg_numbers_guy (06-26-2019)
Alt Today
Popular topics

Other popular topics in this forum...

   
Old 06-27-2019, 08:55 AM   #2 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
Ecky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 5,016

ND Miata - '15 Mazda MX-5 Special Package
90 day: 40.51 mpg (US)
Thanks: 2,870
Thanked 2,515 Times in 1,555 Posts
Surprisingly good economy.

My experience with fuel economy in an auto vs manual Fit is similar - the manual trounces the auto.

Incidentally, this is on MrMoneyMustache's list of recommended cars.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-2019, 09:05 AM   #3 (permalink)
Batman Junior
 
MetroMPG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: 1000 Islands, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 22,515

Blackfly - '98 Geo Metro
Team Metro
Last 3: 70.09 mpg (US)

MPGiata - '90 Mazda Miata
90 day: 52.71 mpg (US)

Even Fancier Metro - '14 Mitsubishi Mirage top spec
90 day: 70.75 mpg (US)

Appliance car - '14 Mitsubishi Mirage ES (base)
90 day: 52.48 mpg (US)
Thanks: 4,062
Thanked 6,960 Times in 3,604 Posts
Yay, my brother accidentally did something financially responsible!
__________________
Project MPGiata! Mods for getting 50+ MPG from a 1990 Miata
Honda mods: Ecomodding my $800 Honda Fit 5-speed beater
Mitsu mods: 70 MPG in my ecomodded, dirt cheap, 3-cylinder Mirage.
Ecodriving test: Manual vs. automatic transmission MPG showdown



EcoModder
has launched a forum for the efficient new Mitsubishi Mirage
www.MetroMPG.com - fuel efficiency info for Geo Metro owners
www.ForkenSwift.com - electric car conversion on a beer budget
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-29-2019, 10:06 PM   #4 (permalink)
Moderator
 
Vman455's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Urbana, IL
Posts: 1,937

Pope Pious the Prius - '13 Toyota Prius Two
Team Toyota
SUV
90 day: 51.62 mpg (US)

Tycho the Truck - '91 Toyota Pickup DLX 4WD
90 day: 22.22 mpg (US)
Thanks: 199
Thanked 1,802 Times in 939 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by MetroMPG View Post
The shift quality sucks though. Shifter feel is very clicky-plasticky. I've seen this in several other manual Toyota cars (Matrix) of this era. The clutch pedal seems to have an especially long travel, but maybe that's just me, used to the Metro.
This has been my experience in manually-equipped Toyota cars as well. I bought the Civic over a Corolla GT-S in part because the shift feel and clutch engagement felt so much less vague.
__________________
UIUC Aerospace Engineering
www.amateuraerodynamics.com
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2019, 12:31 AM   #5 (permalink)
Banned
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Everett WA
Posts: 508
Thanks: 67
Thanked 164 Times in 124 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by MetroMPG View Post
(Interestingly, the manual and automatic Xb have identical city/hwy ratings. Regardless, we all know....the manual will trounce the automatic in the real world.......The shift quality sucks though. Shifter feel is very clicky-plasticky.
We have two Hyundai Elantras (same color), one automatic & one manual, also with the same EPA rated MPG. However, the manual is geared 6% lower than the automatic. Still, the manual "trounces" the automatic at lower speeds (but still maintaining high gear) & in the mountains. Along with the superior MPG, of course, the lower geared manual buries the automatic in performance. The manual transmission is so smooth that you feel lost between the gears. But I would never have a different manual transmission "feel" now.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-07-2019, 09:43 AM   #6 (permalink)
Batman Junior
 
MetroMPG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: 1000 Islands, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 22,515

Blackfly - '98 Geo Metro
Team Metro
Last 3: 70.09 mpg (US)

MPGiata - '90 Mazda Miata
90 day: 52.71 mpg (US)

Even Fancier Metro - '14 Mitsubishi Mirage top spec
90 day: 70.75 mpg (US)

Appliance car - '14 Mitsubishi Mirage ES (base)
90 day: 52.48 mpg (US)
Thanks: 4,062
Thanked 6,960 Times in 3,604 Posts
I drove the XB again this weekend... pleasant enough, but yuck, that shifter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vman455 View Post
This has been my experience in manually-equipped Toyota cars as well. I bought the Civic over a Corolla GT-S in part because the shift feel and clutch engagement felt so much less vague.
What year Civic? The '07 Civic I had wasn't a much better in terms of shifter feel than this XB. Very vague and "plasticky". On the other hand, 80's Hondas were renowned for delightful shift quality. My folks had an '88 Accord manual that was a treat to drive.

===

MPG report...

In much cooler & quite windy weather, I saw 6.6 L/100 km = 36 MPG US on the display in gentle backroads driving (80 km/h PSL = 50 mph), no engine-off shenanigans. I left it idling when I was coasting.
__________________
Project MPGiata! Mods for getting 50+ MPG from a 1990 Miata
Honda mods: Ecomodding my $800 Honda Fit 5-speed beater
Mitsu mods: 70 MPG in my ecomodded, dirt cheap, 3-cylinder Mirage.
Ecodriving test: Manual vs. automatic transmission MPG showdown



EcoModder
has launched a forum for the efficient new Mitsubishi Mirage
www.MetroMPG.com - fuel efficiency info for Geo Metro owners
www.ForkenSwift.com - electric car conversion on a beer budget
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2021, 11:05 AM   #7 (permalink)
Batman Junior
 
MetroMPG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: 1000 Islands, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 22,515

Blackfly - '98 Geo Metro
Team Metro
Last 3: 70.09 mpg (US)

MPGiata - '90 Mazda Miata
90 day: 52.71 mpg (US)

Even Fancier Metro - '14 Mitsubishi Mirage top spec
90 day: 70.75 mpg (US)

Appliance car - '14 Mitsubishi Mirage ES (base)
90 day: 52.48 mpg (US)
Thanks: 4,062
Thanked 6,960 Times in 3,604 Posts
On death's doorstep?

Scion update!

Preamble: my brother is not exactly known for careful maintenance practices. (It's possible he changes engine oil once in a year or thereabouts, but not confirmed.)

A month ago, his Scion's oil light started flickering at low engine RPM and staying on when the engine was hot at idle. It's only got something like 180k km = 112k miles on it now.

Uh oh! Aren't these Camry engines supposed to live forever?

1st attempted fix: changed the pressure sending unit. Didn't help.

2nd attempted fix: dropped the oil pan to check that the pan isn't full of guck blocking the oil pump intake. That wasn't the problem.

3rd attempted fix: added a mechanical oil pressure gauge to more closely watch what's happening. Answer: Good pressure when cold, drops to ZERO(!) on the gauge at idle when hot (eg. after 25-35 minutes of driving).

4th attempted fix: new oil pump. Nope!

5th attempted fix: changed oil from 5w20 to 10w40 non-synth oil + Lucas magic molasses in a can, 1L. Gauge shows slightly better pressure, but it's so thick this engine is now not going to start on a really cold winter morning.

6th potential fix? His mechanic says $2k for a used, low-kilometer engine.

The strange thing is despite running at ZERO indicated oil pressure more than a couple of times, the engine has never made a strange noise (no knock, no ticking). And there's always oil up top when peering into the oil fill hole.
__________________
Project MPGiata! Mods for getting 50+ MPG from a 1990 Miata
Honda mods: Ecomodding my $800 Honda Fit 5-speed beater
Mitsu mods: 70 MPG in my ecomodded, dirt cheap, 3-cylinder Mirage.
Ecodriving test: Manual vs. automatic transmission MPG showdown



EcoModder
has launched a forum for the efficient new Mitsubishi Mirage
www.MetroMPG.com - fuel efficiency info for Geo Metro owners
www.ForkenSwift.com - electric car conversion on a beer budget
  Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to MetroMPG For This Useful Post:
Ecky (12-28-2021)
Old 12-28-2021, 11:18 AM   #8 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
Ecky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 5,016

ND Miata - '15 Mazda MX-5 Special Package
90 day: 40.51 mpg (US)
Thanks: 2,870
Thanked 2,515 Times in 1,555 Posts
I wonder if that Scion doesn't have some oil jets. That's the only thing I can think of, other than a bearing going. I mean, where else could it possibly be losing oil pressure?

Is the VVT system oil powered in these? Maybe there's a screen that's clogged on the VVT actuator?
  Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Ecky For This Useful Post:
MetroMPG (12-28-2021)
Old 12-28-2021, 12:22 PM   #9 (permalink)
Somewhat crazed
 
Piotrsko's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: 1826 miles WSW of Normal
Posts: 4,062
Thanks: 467
Thanked 1,112 Times in 981 Posts
High pressure bypass doesn't include pressure gauge? Had one stick open on a 66 buick same symptoms.
__________________
casual notes from the underground:There are some "experts" out there that in reality don't have a clue as to what they are doing.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2021, 02:37 PM   #10 (permalink)
Batman Junior
 
MetroMPG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: 1000 Islands, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 22,515

Blackfly - '98 Geo Metro
Team Metro
Last 3: 70.09 mpg (US)

MPGiata - '90 Mazda Miata
90 day: 52.71 mpg (US)

Even Fancier Metro - '14 Mitsubishi Mirage top spec
90 day: 70.75 mpg (US)

Appliance car - '14 Mitsubishi Mirage ES (base)
90 day: 52.48 mpg (US)
Thanks: 4,062
Thanked 6,960 Times in 3,604 Posts
Good ideas , thanks!

Going to send them to my brother.

__________________
Project MPGiata! Mods for getting 50+ MPG from a 1990 Miata
Honda mods: Ecomodding my $800 Honda Fit 5-speed beater
Mitsu mods: 70 MPG in my ecomodded, dirt cheap, 3-cylinder Mirage.
Ecodriving test: Manual vs. automatic transmission MPG showdown



EcoModder
has launched a forum for the efficient new Mitsubishi Mirage
www.MetroMPG.com - fuel efficiency info for Geo Metro owners
www.ForkenSwift.com - electric car conversion on a beer budget
  Reply With Quote
Reply  Post New Thread






Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.5.2
All content copyright EcoModder.com