Go Back   EcoModder Forum > Off-Topic > The Lounge
Register Now
 Register Now
 


Reply  Post New Thread
 
Submit Tools LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 10-14-2020, 01:52 PM   #111 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Earth
Posts: 540
Thanks: 23
Thanked 128 Times in 99 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by redpoint5 View Post
The automobile has been among the most life enhancing inventions of all time. Big Oil is the single greatest thing to happen to humanity in the history of history. Every metric of human wellbeing has been improved as a consequence of fossil fuel innovation. The fact that you type this electronic message for all the world to behold is testament to the power of fossil fuels.
I'd love to hear some supporting reasons for this comment.

I'll try to summarize my position so that replies might head in my intended direction:
A. Cars and cheap (to the consumers) energy have been great for humanity in ways, and horrible in ways.
B. Human well-being and ultimately the habitability of the planet are at risk, and much of this risk is due to the burning of fossil fuels.
C. The consequences of taking that risk are so severe that there is no good argument to continue taking (fueling) that risk.

Therefore, from C alone:

D. We need a major shift away from burning fossil fuels.

We should have taken this seriously when Carter was president. If we would've started then, then we wouldn't have to make changes so quickly, now.

  Reply With Quote
Alt Today
Popular topics

Other popular topics in this forum...

   
Old 10-14-2020, 01:56 PM   #112 (permalink)
EcoModding Newb
 
redpoint5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Oregon
Posts: 8,389

Acura TSX - '06 Acura TSX
90 day: 29.14 mpg (US)

Lafawnda - '01 Honda CBR600 F4i
90 day: 47.32 mpg (US)

Big Yeller - '98 Dodge Ram 2500 base
90 day: 21.82 mpg (US)

Prius Plug-in - '12 Toyota Prius Plug-in
90 day: 57.64 mpg (US)

Mazda CX-5 - '17 Mazda CX-5 Touring
90 day: 28.5 mpg (US)
Thanks: 2,829
Thanked 3,227 Times in 2,405 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by sgtlethargic View Post
I'd love to hear some supporting reasons for this comment.

I'll try to summarize my position so that replies might head in my intended direction:
A. Cars and cheap (to the consumers) energy have been great for humanity in ways, and horrible in ways.
B. Human well-being and ultimately the habitability of the planet are at risk, and much of this risk is due to the burning of fossil fuels.
C. The consequences of taking that risk are so severe that there is no good argument to continue taking (fueling) that risk.

Therefore, from C alone:

D. We need a major shift away from burning fossil fuels.

We should have taken this seriously when Carter was president. If we would've started then, then we wouldn't have to make changes so quickly, now.
A and D are incontrovertible truths. B and C are debatable.

The US isn't the largest consumer of fossil fuels, so Carter can't couldn't have been THE solution.

I'd start with deconstructing Alex Epstein's moral case(s) for fossil fuels.
__________________
Gas and Electric Vehicle Cost of Ownership Calculator







Give me absolute safety, or give me death!
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-14-2020, 01:58 PM   #113 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Earth
Posts: 540
Thanks: 23
Thanked 128 Times in 99 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by redpoint5 View Post
You've made the first and biggest mistake right off the batt; assuming a conclusion that isn't in evidence.
Do tell.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-14-2020, 02:00 PM   #114 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Earth
Posts: 540
Thanks: 23
Thanked 128 Times in 99 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by redpoint5 View Post
A and D are incontrovertible truths. B and C are debatable.

The US isn't the largest consumer of fossil fuels, so Carter can't couldn't have been THE solution.

I'd start with deconstructing Alex Epstein's moral case(s) for fossil fuels.
Please post a comment that simply and clearly states your position.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-14-2020, 02:14 PM   #115 (permalink)
EcoModding Newb
 
redpoint5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Oregon
Posts: 8,389

Acura TSX - '06 Acura TSX
90 day: 29.14 mpg (US)

Lafawnda - '01 Honda CBR600 F4i
90 day: 47.32 mpg (US)

Big Yeller - '98 Dodge Ram 2500 base
90 day: 21.82 mpg (US)

Prius Plug-in - '12 Toyota Prius Plug-in
90 day: 57.64 mpg (US)

Mazda CX-5 - '17 Mazda CX-5 Touring
90 day: 28.5 mpg (US)
Thanks: 2,829
Thanked 3,227 Times in 2,405 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by sgtlethargic View Post
Do tell.
I can't speak to something not in evidence, other than to say it isn't in evidence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sgtlethargic View Post
Please post a comment that simply and clearly states your position.
I don't have a position because the variables are so infinitely complex that only myopic conclusions can be drawn.

1. Warming has been underway for 20,000 years and humanity has prospered mightily from it.
2. Warming continues and human flourishing continues.
3. Some level of warming becomes a net negative to humanity, and that level has yet to be established.
4. It's unclear if human effort can meaningfully slow or stop the rising outdoor temperature. We talk in terms of delaying warming. For instance, banning all fossil fuel vehicles in the US immediately would delay warming by x number of months. Is that trade-off worth it?
__________________
Gas and Electric Vehicle Cost of Ownership Calculator







Give me absolute safety, or give me death!
  Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to redpoint5 For This Useful Post:
freebeard (10-14-2020)
Old 10-14-2020, 02:22 PM   #116 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Earth
Posts: 540
Thanks: 23
Thanked 128 Times in 99 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by redpoint5 View Post
I can't speak to something not in evidence, other than to say it isn't in evidence.



I don't have a position because the variables are so infinitely complex that only myopic conclusions can be drawn.

1. Warming has been underway for 20,000 years and humanity has prospered mightily from it.
2. Warming continues and human flourishing continues.
3. Some level of warming becomes a net negative to humanity, and that level has yet to be established.
4. It's unclear if human effort can meaningfully slow or stop the rising outdoor temperature. We talk in terms of delaying warming. For instance, banning all fossil fuel vehicles in the US immediately would delay warming by x number of months. Is that trade-off worth it?
I'll take your position to be that you think it's worth risking the consequences (part C in my #111 comment).
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-14-2020, 02:29 PM   #117 (permalink)
EcoModding Newb
 
redpoint5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Oregon
Posts: 8,389

Acura TSX - '06 Acura TSX
90 day: 29.14 mpg (US)

Lafawnda - '01 Honda CBR600 F4i
90 day: 47.32 mpg (US)

Big Yeller - '98 Dodge Ram 2500 base
90 day: 21.82 mpg (US)

Prius Plug-in - '12 Toyota Prius Plug-in
90 day: 57.64 mpg (US)

Mazda CX-5 - '17 Mazda CX-5 Touring
90 day: 28.5 mpg (US)
Thanks: 2,829
Thanked 3,227 Times in 2,405 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by sgtlethargic View Post
I'll take your position to be that you think it's worth risking the consequences (part C in my earlier comment).
You can take my position to mean I don't know with enough confidence because GW is a political topic, and anybody looking to simply do research that doesn't support an agenda is unfunded.

The threat is not existential (not in evidence), either. Adapting to wide ranging climates is among the things humanity is best at. We live in the Arctic, to the rainforests, to the hottest deserts, to no climate at all (space). Some of us live below sea level (Netherlands).

Rapid climate change is alarming, but it seems to coincide with rapid changes in technology.
__________________
Gas and Electric Vehicle Cost of Ownership Calculator







Give me absolute safety, or give me death!
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-14-2020, 02:46 PM   #118 (permalink)
Eco-ventor
 
jakobnev's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: sweden
Posts: 1,418

Princess - '92 Mazda MX-3 GS
House of Tudor
Team Mazda
90 day: 53.54 mpg (US)

Shirubāarō (*ω`*) - '05 Toyota Prius Executive
Team Toyota
90 day: 55.11 mpg (US)
Thanks: 60
Thanked 548 Times in 347 Posts
Send a message via MSN to jakobnev
Quote:
...now back on topic, what is your favorite IPA and Scotch?
I got these in February, they are both brilliant, although, the one on the left isn't scotch, it's japtsch.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_20201014_193531097.jpg
Views:	20
Size:	114.0 KB
ID:	29356  
__________________




2016: 128.75L for 1875.00km => 6.87L/100km (34.3MPG US)
2017: 209.14L for 4244.00km => 4.93L/100km (47.7MPG US)
  Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to jakobnev For This Useful Post:
redpoint5 (10-14-2020)
Old 10-14-2020, 02:50 PM   #119 (permalink)
EV convert
 
oil pan 4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: NewMexico (USA)
Posts: 8,976

Sub - '84 Chevy Diesel Suburban C10
SUV
90 day: 19.5 mpg (US)

camaro - '85 Chevy Camaro Z28

Riot - '03 Kia Rio POS
Team Hyundai
90 day: 30.21 mpg (US)

Bug - '01 VW Beetle GLSturbo
90 day: 26.43 mpg (US)

Sub2500 - '86 GMC Suburban C2500
90 day: 11.95 mpg (US)

Snow flake - '11 Nissan Leaf SL
SUV
90 day: 141.63 mpg (US)
Thanks: 215
Thanked 2,938 Times in 2,290 Posts
Right now all the gasoline that gets saved by using electric vehicles gets exported to other countries.
But I say definitely keep buying electric.

I like it when the anti fossil fuels people think we can just stop using fossil fuels, like it will just be some minor inconvenience. Ah the child like innocence.
They have no idea that ammonia from fossil fuels, mainly natural gas, some times coal and diesel powered farm equipment keeps at least half the world's population fed.
Ignorance really is bliss.

Oh and I can say the Japanese definitely mastered making whiskey and burbon.
__________________
1984 chevy suburban, custom made 6.5L diesel turbocharged with a Garrett T76 and Holset HE351VE, 22:1 compression 13psi of intercooled boost.
1989 firebird mostly stock. Aside from the 6-speed manual trans, corvette gen 5 front brakes, 1LE drive shaft, 4th Gen disc brake fbody rear end.
2011 leaf SL, white, portable 240v CHAdeMO, trailer hitch, new batt as of 2014.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-14-2020, 02:57 PM   #120 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
freebeard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: northwest of normal
Posts: 17,485
Thanks: 4,713
Thanked 5,828 Times in 4,649 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by sgtlethargic
Quote:
Originally Posted by redpoint5
The automobile... Big Oil... ...fossil fuel... ...this electronic message...
I'd love to hear some supporting reasons for this comment.
One thing leads to another?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sgtlethargic
B. Human well-being and ultimately the habitability of the planet are at risk, and much of this risk is due to the burning of fossil fuels.
Looking at risk overall, fossil fuels pale before the recurrent micro-nova.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JSH
freebeard likes conspiracy theories and communicating in riddles and code. Maybe they make sense if you follow QAnon. (Maybe freebeard is Q?)
Maybe that's why I'm always so tired? It's like Fight Club?

I was being entertained by conspiracy theory before Internet came along.
Robt Anton Wilson Cosmic Trigger
Timothy Leary Game of Life, Psychocybernetics
Giorgio de Santillana, Hertha von Dechend Hamlet's Mill
My alltime favorite is the connections between Dr. Mary S. Sherman and Judith Vary Baker:

https://www.amazon.com/Dr-Marys-Monk.../dp/0977795306

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=lee+and+me
Quote:
Quotes - DoctorMarysMonkey.com
Quotes
Dr. Mary's Monkey is a book that will change . one's view of many subjects: polio vaccine, Mary Sherman's death, bio-medical research, and the Kennedy assassination. It's quite a read, and paired with Lee & Me by Judyth Vary Baker will show you . a new view of American history. September 25, 2014. Anita T. Monroe . Clemson, SC . Love it! I love ...
I've met Judith Vary Baker. I even have a piece of signed artwork by her.

But more recently is more about the inertia holding back the future. Plasma Universe will prevail over Dark Matter. Future will prove the past [this month ]. But apparently dentistry will remain in the dark ages. Twenty years ago I was talking to dentist about growing new teeth in adulthood. Now I don't even try.

__________________
.


Shower thoughts: Honey is the tastiest of all the insect vomits we have tried so far.

_________________
  Reply With Quote
Reply  Post New Thread


Thread Tools




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.5.2
All content copyright EcoModder.com