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Old 08-15-2008, 02:25 PM   #21 (permalink)
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MechEngVT,
Your right. I have tendency to skip thing that are obvious to me. Like the 230 VAC motor, and I assume that if it is desirable to control it in any way, an inverter is necessary. Working in the HEV area I kinda forget what is common knowledge. I could work without an inverter, but the entire electricity supply would come directly from the generator, which would be producing 230 VAC, leading to the result which is described in my post above.

The cheapest way to get a drivable PHEV would be to buy used EV, get an on board charger which is hooked up to the generator. Fire up the generator when the batteries get low. Crude, but it would work.

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Old 08-15-2008, 03:11 PM   #22 (permalink)
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"but I personnely think you are better off moving or changing jobs if you spend $350 a month on gas."

Ok I am seriously curious. WHY do people always suggest this? The "cost" to move is greater than all the fuel I will use in a lifetime by many orders of magnitude?

"moving" is not even "remotely" a twinkle in the eye an affordable answer. I could DOUBLE my distance to work and moving is still so much more expensive as to literally be laughable???

Changing jobs is also not an option. Its a family business and integrated into out household. While when I have a second job I do get one thats close (many times close enough that I use a bicycle to get there) but my primary job is fixed.

Also even if I could. Technology is supposed to work for me not the other way around. :-)

"At the very least spend $2k and get yourself a small car for commuting! You'll half your gas prices and the car will have paid for itself in the first year!"

Well I do not have $2k but "I AM" looking for a cheaper ie higher mpg car. I have been seeking a metro for some time now within my budget. 45+mpg is very enticing.

I got my 300D for the same reason and it worked. I paid $1800 for it and it paid for itself inside of 1 year (until Diesel prices went through the roof for NO financial reasons except greed) :-)

But even at 45mpg I would still be spending some $200 a month in fuel.

I am a bit of an idealist and a dreamer. The ever optimistic type. "I CAN SEE" how electric cars can LITERALLY change the way things work on this planet.

Its not about saving the environment or being clean. Thats a "side" effect and nothing more. a Very nice side effect but still just a side effect.

The real impact of an electric car is not even Energy Independence (which it will give us in spades)

the REAL impact of an electric car is INDIVIDUAL ENERGY INDEPENDENCE and the shift in "real world power" that goes along with that.

Electric cars can fundamentally alter the "power structure" of the world and I do not mean electrical power folks :-)

It will be the FIRST massive scale transfer of power back from the wealthy to the people where it belongs since the inception of this nation.

If you just think about the national and global IMPACT of an electric car economy. Think about all the secondary effects and all the secondary tertiary etc.. etc.. effects it will have on out economy. It quite literally could be the most powerful change in the recent history of mankind. More power than the Discover of Nuclear Weapons!

Nukes made COUNTRIES more powerful. Electric Cars make "PEOPLE" more powerful.

When you consider to just what kind of EXTENT this will take the power shift you quickly begin to see why people in power so desperately want to crush the very idea of practical affordable electric cars.

The electric car tech is over 10 years old. Late Ninties. There is NO REASON we can not build a sub $12k electric car "right now"

I mean consider this. Using "NICHE" market components ie NOT mass produced (on the scale or an automobile) parts I can get a controller for what ? $2500-$3000? a Good Electric motor for what? $3500-$4000? Maybe a $1000 for a charger.

The primary parts of an electric car are right there. $8000

A car is $2000 for a NICE one used. So far we are at $10k and we have not TOUCHED "mass produced" yet.

I find it mind boggling that we can do this so CHEAPLY.

People do not realize that "solid state" components do NOT scale the same way as normal parts and objects do.

The economy of scale graph for solid state components ramps up EXTREMELY quickly.

Consider LED's If I went to Radio Shack to buy a single white LED its gonna cost me $3 or $4 dollars.

Yet this past christmas I bought a string of 70 blue and white LED's from Target for $7

Just that "little" bit of upscaling so dramatically reduced the prices of the components .....

Electric cars "WILL" scale up exactly the same way and thats one of the things that scares the living crap out of auto makers.

SO why no cars? Well you all know the answer. Batteries.

Well we have those as well. You see all we needed was someone to dump some SERIOUS money into the R&D side. The advancements are there. and there EASY. it just takes MONEY. GM solved this problem inside of TWO FREAKING YEARS Of tackling the problem!

a battery that would last 250,000 miles would drive a two person car 120-150 miles and cost LESS than an engine to replace. $4500.

For the "MOST" part all of the initial "problems" of an electric car were SOLVED.

Add that $4500 battery pack into my above figures and your now looking at UNDER $15k for an electric car plus maybe a grand in labor if you do a lot of it yourself.

IF WE CAN DO IT FOR $15k There is ABSOLUTELY no reason they can not make a stripped down basic electric car for under $12k brand new.

Especially since the individual price of these components will PLUMMET as they ramp up the economies of scale on it into mass production.

Imagine what these individual components would COST if they were making MILLIONS of them instead of a few thousand of them. That $4500 battery pack would be $500 in a few short years.

At $500 a pop I could throw 8-10 sets of them in my van and get over a 1000miles on a charge.

Alas we can not have those batteries. They are tied up in a patent which does not expire till 2015 and chevron refuses to license them.

I am trying to find a way to get some electric vehicle of some type into the hands of people like "ME" ie the "MASSES" of people who can not afford to "buy" a new car like a prius which for the most part is a rip off.

THATS why I keep trying. I figure if I can get an affordable electric car into "enough" people's hands it will cascade and take off from there like wildfire.

I KNOW how to FORCE auto makers to produce electric cars. The problem is orchestrating it.

All we have to do is STOP buying new cars. If we could reach a critical mass of new car buyers choosing instead to buy USED and making it KNOWN to auto makers that your massive decline in sales is BECAUSE they do not have an AFFORDABLE electric car available they will get the message and quickly.

I would love to see chevron go out of business as people enmass stop buying chevron/texaco fuel. Make it clear to them. If you depend on fuel your going out of business so you better start licensing those batteries if you want to survive.

Problem is a usable Electric car is not one with a 40mile range. How to break that barrier. I just do not know. I hope every day for a breakthrough from EESTOR or someone else. Alas I think its the same old same old. ITs not a matter of invention its a matter of DOLLARS and the only ones with the DOLLARS (auto makers) are also the ones LEAST interested in doing anything at all in this arena.

EESTOR gives me hope because they are ONE remotely unlikely alternative to pure dollars and thats "luck" ie pure invention. Its the LEAST viable solution but they might just have it.

In fact EESTOR has the potential to FAR upset even an electric car infrastructure. With batteries that have NO effective lifespan Power Stations themselves become LESS important especially when combined with the potential of CHEAP solar from companies like NANO SOLAR selling panels at 90cents a watt!

COMBINE two such technologies with an electric car infrastructure and THE VERY NATURE OF POWER as we know it changes and not the electrical kind of power.

So I apologize for the rambling but the potential change gives me hope so I keep fighting for it. Keep trying. One of the easiest ways to GO for this kind of changes it so DO this kind of change myself.

The technology needs to adapt to ME not the other way around. I do not want to move (even if I could) I do not want to change jobs (even if I could) I do not want to use smaller cars etc.. etc.. Electric cars means I do not have to compromise to gain the benefits (a fully realized electric car economy)

If I can make the technology work for me then it can work for nearly anyone!

Its coming. I know this. I am just a bit impatient in waiting for it :-)
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Old 08-16-2008, 12:27 AM   #23 (permalink)
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That notion doesnt make since in the fact your still using diesel or propane to run your. Engines thus again brings up the notion that you can run your engine cheaper buying some canola oil at the local grocery store and fill up cheaper
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Old 08-16-2008, 01:17 AM   #24 (permalink)
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Thats why I want to use Diesel. "I CAN" make my own diesel :-) If I could use a generator and an electric motor I would need a lot less diesel. But it seems it would take a much bigger generator than I can afford to do the job :-) Or a battery pack I also can not afford :-)
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Old 08-16-2008, 09:36 AM   #25 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nerys View Post
Thats why I want to use Diesel. "I CAN" make my own diesel :-) If I could use a generator and an electric motor I would need a lot less diesel. But it seems it would take a much bigger generator than I can afford to do the job :-) Or a battery pack I also can not afford :-)
Nerys -- your fed up like the rest of us -- and we ain't just going to sit here and take it -- but no one said cheap innovative ideas that actually made sense for our wallets and the environment. Sinking $2000 bucks into a project with a 5+ year payback makes little sense.

There is no one clear cut answer -- there are many paths -- we must try and remain scientific and conduct different experiments and see what different things actually work.

Why don't you start by drawing out a diagram of what you want to do. I think your diesel generator idea will help your mpg -- but alone -- it won't do everything you want. But if it is a cheap mod and saves gas -- well it is a start.
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Old 10-05-2008, 02:06 AM   #26 (permalink)
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Just to give you a heads up about the idea. If you live where they test for emissions (as I do) before giving you your tags be forewarned that most generators will not even come close to passing such tests, they simply aren't designed for it. Can this problem be fixed..I'm sure it can but at what cost and what kind of performance issues would putting a cad converter cause. Will your local officials overlook this aspect of the design? doubt it?

Also pay particular attention to the generators duty cycle. A generator for this kind of operation I'd assume would need at least an 80%-100% duty cycle, though I could be wrong on this. But I know I can easily burn out welding machines if I go too long on hot days when I'm at work (I'm an iron worker/welder,and I've done it at least twice in the last two or three years, and they're top of the line name brand welding machines).

I don't think doing this would work out too well as a retro fit in autos. Unless designed from the ground up for this particular power system, such as the Volt. Electric motor, batteries and a generator is a lot of extra weight (And for most ecomodder cars a decent generator would weigh about the same as the engine). It might be possible as a pick up mod, but I don't think it'd work to well for an automobile.

On second thought, you might be able to replace the driveshaft of your vehicle with a stator and connect that to your battery pack. Though now you're adding a lot of extra weight and I'm not sure it would help enough to justify the cost.

<edit> I can relate to a lot of your "rant" I've been playing with this idea myself as a mod for my work truck (after all I got a Miller Trailblazer with a 240amp plug on it that I haul around anyway), but I'm guessing it's gunna cost me at least $5,000 in gear alone (and I've connections for decent prices on used welding machines/generators). And thats not including things like getting the thing to pass DEQ tests for tags.

Don't let my post here discourage you though. I'm not a modding expert by any means. I'm just trying to help you work out the kinks in this type of system, and I hope you (or someone can pull it off--cause I don't have the time or money to experiment with such a project) though with instructions I'd do it in a heartbeat---even though my boss pays for my gas for the truck.
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Old 10-05-2008, 04:37 AM   #27 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daox View Post
At the very least spend $2k and get yourself a small car for commuting! You'll half your gas prices and the car will have paid for itself in the first year!
Exactly right. That is what I did with my Metro. I bought it for next to nothing (dead cylinder) rebuilt it while I was still driving my 94 Buick, then sold my Buick to recoup the costs quickly when the Metro was up and running.

I have a total of $1400 in my Metro, and sold my old Buick for $1100. The old Buick got about 28 mpg and I just had my high tank on my Metro at 57.01, so it did not take long at all to recoup the remaining costs.

There are several threads around here that can help you to rebuild an older Honda or Metro. It really comes down to being outside of the box, and having the confidence that you can make it work!!!

By the way, it was a big cost thing for me, too. The money I got from my Buick went to pay back what I had put on the credit cards to build the Metro. It was an incredible leap of faith that really made me feel good about my own capabilities. Given the fact that she took the leap with me it made me feel real good about my relationship with my wife. That alone was worth more than any gas savings I have gotten.

Last edited by Will; 10-05-2008 at 04:47 AM..
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Old 10-05-2008, 04:43 AM   #28 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nerys View Post
Nukes made COUNTRIES more powerful. Electric Cars make "PEOPLE" more powerful.
I absolutely love this line!!! You are totally correct. I would build my own electric if I thought I could, but maybe that is a confidence thing too
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Old 10-05-2008, 03:18 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by conradpdx View Post
Just to give you a heads up about the idea. If you live where they test for emissions (as I do) before giving you your tags be forewarned that most generators will not even come close to passing such tests...
Another good reason for building the car as an electric, and putting the engine/generator on a trailer :-)
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Old 10-05-2008, 08:11 PM   #30 (permalink)
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You could always just put two or three batteries in it (just enough to get through the emissions testing) and just lie and tell them is was only made to go a couple miles. Then put the genset on when you get it back home. That wouldn't be very good or environmentally friendly, but it might work.

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