Go Back   EcoModder Forum > Off-Topic > The Lounge
Register Now
 Register Now
 

Reply  Post New Thread
 
Submit Tools LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 08-14-2020, 04:19 PM   #91 (permalink)
Batman Junior
 
MetroMPG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: 1000 Islands, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 21,640

Blackfly - '98 Geo Metro
Team Metro
Last 3: 70.09 mpg (US)

MPGiata - '90 Mazda Miata
90 day: 53.78 mpg (US)

Winter beater Metro - '00 Chevrolet Metro
90 day: 61.98 mpg (US)

Fancy Metro - '14 Mitsubishi Mirage top spec
90 day: 58.72 mpg (US)

Even Fancier Metro - '14 Mitsubishi Mirage top spec
90 day: 66.29 mpg (US)
Thanks: 3,394
Thanked 6,199 Times in 3,210 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by JSH View Post
You mention real world vs testing. For a manufacturer the test is reality - that is all we get credit for. Compliance and avoiding millions (USA) and billions (Europe) in fuel economy fines are based on what the testing shows.
That supports my opinion that the manual transmission test itself is part of the problem.

Also explains why GM put that 1st-to-4th manual skip shift feature in some of its big V8 sports cars back in the day? (Hmmm... do they still?)

I wonder what we'd find if we looked at owner-reported fuel economy of manual vs. automatic transmissions for a non-hypermiler's type of car. How about, say, the Subaru/Toyota BRZ/82? My theory is the manuals will still be less bad / better than the automatics, relative to their respective EPA ratings. I may poke around Fuelly and see, just for fun.

__________________
Latest mods: 3-cylinder Mitsubishi Mirage. EcoMods now in progress...
Ecodriving test:
Manual vs. automatic transmission MPG showdown



EcoModder
has launched a forum for the efficient new Mitsubishi Mirage
www.MetroMPG.com - fuel efficiency info for Geo Metro owners
www.ForkenSwift.com - electric car conversion on a beer budget
  Reply With Quote
Alt Today
Popular topics

Other popular topics in this forum...

   
Old 08-14-2020, 04:23 PM   #92 (permalink)
JSH
AKA - Jason
 
JSH's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: PDX
Posts: 1,489

Adventure Seeker - '04 Chevy Astro - Campervan
90 day: 17.3 mpg (US)

Dieselgate - '14 VW Jetta Sportwagen TDI
90 day: 38.24 mpg (US)
Thanks: 73
Thanked 836 Times in 564 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by redpoint5 View Post
Overdrive reminds me of the 1985 Volvo I drove. It had a 4 (or was it 5?) speed manual with an overdrive switch on the shifter knob. Never knew what that actually did to reduce the RPMs, or why they didn't just add another gear.

I do know coming back from Canada without the overdrive made for a noisy and inefficient trip back.
Likely similar to the 4+3 in the C4 Corvette my brother owned.

Quote:
Jalopnik: Called the “Doug Nash 4+3,” the transmission was essentially just a Borg-Warner Super T-10 four-speed with an overdrive bolted to the ass-end. That electro-hydraulically controlled two-speed overdrive was automatic, engaging when the driver let off the gas (i.e. under low load), and could be turned on and off via a button on the top of the shifter.

https://jalopnik.com/the-chevrolet-c...smi-1825119474
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2020, 05:07 PM   #93 (permalink)
JSH
AKA - Jason
 
JSH's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: PDX
Posts: 1,489

Adventure Seeker - '04 Chevy Astro - Campervan
90 day: 17.3 mpg (US)

Dieselgate - '14 VW Jetta Sportwagen TDI
90 day: 38.24 mpg (US)
Thanks: 73
Thanked 836 Times in 564 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by MetroMPG View Post
That supports my opinion that the manual transmission test itself is part of the problem.

Also explains why GM put that 1st-to-4th manual skip shift feature in some of its big V8 sports cars back in the day? (Hmmm... do they still?)

I wonder what we'd find if we looked at owner-reported fuel economy of manual vs. automatic transmissions for a non-hypermiler's type of car. How about, say, the Subaru/Toyota BRZ/82? My theory is the manuals will still be less bad / better than the automatics, relative to their respective EPA ratings. I may poke around Fuelly and see, just for fun.
Small sample size but if you look at Fuelly for 2019 Corolla Hatchbacks with the 2.0L

8 Automatics (CVT) averaging 36.0 mpg (EPA Combined = 36 mpg)
4 Manual (6-speed) averaging 34.1 mpg (EPA Combined = 31 mpg)

EDIT:
Looking at European Ratings the autos still beat the manuals on the WLTP cycle but they are a lot closer. From the UK site nextgreencar:
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Honda Civic.jpg
Views:	1
Size:	31.9 KB
ID:	28923   Click image for larger version

Name:	Toyota Yaris.jpg
Views:	1
Size:	51.1 KB
ID:	28924  

Last edited by JSH; 08-14-2020 at 05:46 PM..
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2020, 05:23 PM   #94 (permalink)
It's all about Diesel
 
cRiPpLe_rOoStEr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Porto Alegre, Rio Grande do Sul, Brazil
Posts: 8,202
Thanks: 0
Thanked 896 Times in 793 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by JSH View Post
I guess that depends on what manual transmission Allison is using as a benchmark. If Allison is benchmarking a 4 or 5 speed manual they might be more efficient.
For urban transit buses here, nowadays the manuals are usually 5 or 6-speed.


Quote:
In the USA, the Allison 3000 series is popular for Class 6 medium duty trucks used for vocational applications. The Eaton manual option would be a Fuller 9-18 speed or Eaton Ultrashift automated manual. The Allison is the least fuel efficient option but the easiest to drive. (As one would expect from a 6 speed auto with a torque converter)
I often see medium-duty trucks with 6-speed manuals. Nowadays fewer have been fitted with anything more than a 9-speed here.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2020, 05:44 PM   #95 (permalink)
EcoModding Newb
 
redpoint5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Oregon
Posts: 8,048

Acura TSX - '06 Acura TSX
90 day: 26.38 mpg (US)

Lafawnda - '01 Honda CBR600 F4i
90 day: 47.32 mpg (US)

Big Yeller - '98 Dodge Ram 2500 base
90 day: 21.82 mpg (US)

Prius Plug-in - '12 Toyota Prius Plug-in
90 day: 57.64 mpg (US)

Mazda CX-5 - '17 Mazda CX-5 Touring
90 day: 28.8 mpg (US)
Thanks: 2,678
Thanked 3,153 Times in 2,347 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by JSH View Post
Small sample size but if you look at Fuelly for 2019 Corolla Hatchbacks with the 2.0L

8 Automatics (CVT) averaging 36.0 mpg (EPA Combined = 36 mpg)
4 Manual (6-speed) averaging 34.1 mpg (EPA Combined = 31 mpg)
I don't know why, but the gearing on the 6-speed manual TSX is much closer ratio and shorter than the automatic. As a result, it gets worse fuel economy. My assumption is most manufacturers cripple their manuals similarly.

As I've always complained, the 6th gear is useless on my car because there's no straight long enough on a racetrack to necessitate 6th gear, yet it's too short to be useful for highway cruising.
__________________
Gas and Electric Vehicle Cost of Ownership Calculator







Give me absolute safety, or give me death!
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2020, 07:57 PM   #96 (permalink)
Rat Racer
 
Fat Charlie's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Route 16
Posts: 3,936

Al the Third, year four - '13 Honda Fit Base
Team Honda
90 day: 42.9 mpg (US)
Thanks: 1,650
Thanked 1,786 Times in 1,155 Posts
... Because sporty.

As if having that much better control over your gears than an AT wasn't sporty enough.
__________________

Quote:
Originally Posted by sheepdog44 View Post
Transmission type Efficiency
Manual neutral engine off.100% @MPG <----- Fun Fact.
Manual 1:1 gear ratio .......98%
CVT belt ............................88%
Automatic .........................86%

  Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Fat Charlie For This Useful Post:
JSH (08-17-2020)
Old 08-18-2020, 07:54 PM   #97 (permalink)
Not Doug
 
Xist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Show Low, AZ
Posts: 9,779

Chorizo - '00 Honda Civic HX, baby! :D
90 day: 35.35 mpg (US)

Mid-Life Crisis Fighter - '99 Honda Accord LX
90 day: 31.32 mpg (US)
Thanks: 6,594
Thanked 1,871 Times in 1,421 Posts
I was happy to see someone bring up tire chains and then you completely moved past.

Sorry, my posts per hour have been way down lately. It seems like the longer that TPgate continues the more difficulty that I have accounting for each passing day.

This is still June, right?

Weird how I remembered various details from this scene, but not the piano:


I do have one theory about where my time goes. Imagine me looking around my 43" monitor and saying this to the wall:
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	vkQu3zw.png
Views:	25
Size:	330.6 KB
ID:	28975   Click image for larger version

Name:	tenor.gif
Views:	1
Size:	727.0 KB
ID:	28976  
__________________
"Oh if you use math, reason, and logic you will be hated."--OilPan4
  Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Xist For This Useful Post:
redpoint5 (08-20-2020)
Old 08-18-2020, 11:41 PM   #98 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
freebeard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: northwest of normal
Posts: 16,583
Thanks: 4,379
Thanked 5,587 Times in 4,450 Posts
It turns out my son'e SRT-8 has the Autostick.



He confirms — put it in Autostick, floor it and let the TCM shift up just before the redline. Don't think you can do that with VWs.
__________________
.

Change my, you know, the thing.

_________________
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2020, 07:19 PM   #99 (permalink)
It's all about Diesel
 
cRiPpLe_rOoStEr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Porto Alegre, Rio Grande do Sul, Brazil
Posts: 8,202
Thanks: 0
Thanked 896 Times in 793 Posts
Not that I became totally unfavorable to manuals on any application, but it's hard to deny automatics became favored when it comes to maintenance schedules, as most of the routine procedures became simpler than replacing a clutch pack on a manual.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat Charlie View Post
... Because sporty.
It might not be only due to this, even though surprisingly some older cars had a shorter gearing for sporty versions which actually rendered their top speed lower than some conventional versions. Seemed like a good excuse to increase the amount of gears in sportier models in order to retain a wider gear spread...


Quote:
As if having that much better control over your gears than an AT wasn't sporty enough.
Nowadays the sequential manual mode is enough for most circumstances when a more spirited driving is considered either desirable or just funny.

  Reply With Quote
Reply  Post New Thread


Thread Tools




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.5.2
All content copyright EcoModder.com