the concept of "peak Oil " is blarney

[MPGranger]

Originally Posted by IamIan

The way I see it , conservation has been the primary motivator or cause for the vast majority of innovations in human history ... we want to work less for the same output ( thus conserving our time and our energies ).

I disagree, I see that many innovations come about as a result of war, competing for resources. Only after a warring period do civilians adapt new technology to industry.

So the question is, when fossil fuels, aka liquid work, what will we use to beat the other guy over the head? Think about it, no fuel=no airplanes and armored vehicles, that puts warfare back to WW1 type engagements.

I support alternative fuels to extend the age of flight for my country and its allies.

[NachtRitter]

Biofuels are already being used for airplanes: Aviation biofuel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. Since kerosene is similar to jet fuel is similar to diesel, it's relatively easy to run a jet on biofuels

Electric airplanes are also being researched: Electric aircraft - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Most armored vehicle engines are already Diesel and will run on a variety of source fuels, so running them on biodiesel is not an issue. They are also researching hybrids: The Army's first hybrid tank

So (sadly), no worries about wars ending.

[IamIan]

Originally Posted by jamesqf

What defines "lower standard of living", though? From my point of view, most of the population of this country has freely and voluntarily chosen to live at a much lower standard of living than they could easily obtain.

Like how people get majorly into credit card debit ... and then all the Credit Card interest they pay is effectively a lower standard of living they could have lived with the same money otherwise... because having Item A right now is somehow worth Item A +__% Interest payments ... ie A > A ... in some cases that can work, other times , it is just voluntarily paying more for Item A , thus due to the interest payments not being able to latter afford Item B.

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Originally Posted by MPGranger

I disagree, I see that many innovations come about as a result of war, competing for resources. Only after a warring period do civilians adapt new technology to industry.

I would agree conservation efforts are not the only motivator for innovation.

Specifically I do agree that some of those other motivations have been conflict, be it war or just general military... although just being a military innovation does not by itself mean that it is not still a conservation innovation... the two are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

However ... That doesn't change the existence of those innovations that were the result of conservation... even if that conservation partially motivated by conflict or military ... it was still conservation.

And for my money I think when comparing the total impact of all conservation innovation and all non-conservation innovation ... I'm still going to say I think those conservation innovations are way up there ... if not as a total benefit being the vast majority or dominate from conservation.

But if you think differently ... I'm happy to discuss and compare innovations ... maybe I'm seeing the impact and quantity of different innovations differently than you.

I'll even go first.

Agriculture ( Conservation ) ... what military non-conservation innovation was 'bigger' than agriculture?

[NeilBlanchard]

...and, you have to ask, from *what* is that hydrocarbon-solvent made?

It is mostly low-grade gasoline, as I understand it.

[niky]

One could argue that Agriculture created the need for warfare...

[thomason2wheels]

Originally Posted by Piwoslaw

Huh
Darin, your years of moderating have gotten you weary. The OP was referring to left-thread wing nuts, a purely technical thing.

Wing nuts don't have political views, at best they just screw around

Wait,isnt that the definition of politics? Hehe

[user removed]

Originally Posted by niky

One could argue that Agriculture created the need for warfare...

And Religion.

regards
Mech

[jamesqf]

Originally Posted by IamIan

Agriculture ( Conservation ) ... what military non-conservation innovation was 'bigger' than agriculture?

The military & political organization that allowed warlike peoples to conquer others and force them to labor in their fields. Most pre-industrial revolution civilizations (if not all of them) ran large parts of their agriculture with slaves & serfs.

[IamIan]

Originally Posted by niky

One could argue that Agriculture created the need for warfare...

Someone could argue just about anything about just about any topic.

'need' only goes back to the previous posts ... thing A is only needed to get or avoid thing B under conditions C ... I don't see what conditions result in thing B ( warfare in this case ) being 'needed' from thing A ( Agriculture in this case).

Weather or not some side effect aspect of agriculture could potentially contribute to warfare ... agriculture was not needed for warfare ... and warfare was not needed for agriculture.

Weather or not agriculture contributed to anything else ( warfare or other things ) ... does not alter that agriculture itself was a MAJOR Innovation.

Originally Posted by jamesqf

The military & political organization that allowed warlike peoples to conquer others and force them to labor in their fields. Most pre-industrial revolution civilizations (if not all of them) ran large parts of their agriculture with slaves & serfs.

I think Agriculture was and is a bigger innovation than the warlike people's who enslave others innovation you refer to.

#1>
How far would the innovation you refer to have gotten without Agriculture as a base under it? ... a small band of hunter gather warlike people conquering and enslaving others ... such 'organization' would have greatly struggled to get larger than a hundred people ... compared to billions today thanks to agriculture.

#2>
Your right to reefer to pre-industrial revolution civilizations ... because it dates the value of that referenced Innovation ... Modern Agriculture is an innovation still making a massive impact ... While the innovation you refer to has become antiquated and well on its way to being obsolete.

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But that all having been said... even if you do think it is 'bigger' than agriculture.

Your proposed innovation does not meet the criteria listed:
The warlike people who enslave others do it to conserve their own time and energy ... having the slaves do work for them, so they don't have to do it themselves ... you just listed another conservation innovation ... and as such it is not a non-conservation innovation ... which was the criteria.

Thus another example of efforts for conservation leading to an innovation.

[MPGranger]

Okay, what does agriculture let you do?? Gather a larger group of people into a smaller area. Even animals "war", they fight for resources. What we did was discovered a way to let one guy specialize in food production to free up others into taking others food. Napoleon says an army marches on its stomach, meaning that crappy logistics = a crappy army.

So let's go to the next innovation: Roads. Is it a more efficient way to move goods for trade or a way to quickly move your troops to reinforce key areas? Romans were known for there roads, they were also known for their armies and they let eqypt be the bread basket for their empire.

Have you ever thought of the concept of total war? The idea that the factories and farms of a country are a military asset? So attacking civilian populations was acceptable to stop resource development. Famous American General who followed this train of thought, William Tecumseh Sherman. Love him or hate him he precipitated the collapse of the confederacy.