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Old 04-23-2021, 10:49 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Cooling System Drag variability (some examples)

* 1938 Adler-Jaray, 100% grille-block, delta 15.789%
* 1963, idealized cooling system, Cd 0.21 vehicle, Walter Korff, Lockheed Aircraft Company, delta- 7.7%
* 1969 Chevrolet Corvette ( daytime ), 100% grille-block, delta- 6.53%
* CAR and DRIVER, 'CRISIS-FIGHTER PINTO,' 1974 Ford Pinto Runabout, 100% grille-block, delta- 4.33%
* 1976 'Lamellar' grille, Ford of Cologne, Germany, delta- 12%
* 1978 Chevrolet Chevette, 100% grille-block, delta- 7.569%
* 1982 Pontiac Firebird Trans Am, 100% grille-block, delta 3.5%
* 1982 Dr. Ludwig Elsbett, Elsbett Konstruktion ( Elko ), Volkswagen Rabbit, with oil-cooled Elko 3-cyl Diesel, radiator deleted ( standard Rabbit heater core used for engine cooling ), delta- approx. 5.8139%
* SAE Paper 860212, FIAT, wind tunnel research model, cooling drag = 0.017
* Ditto: with 100% grille-block, delta 0.003, 1.2%
* 2005 ' Project Red Hat,' HOT ROD Magazine, land speed record, Chevrolet Camaro, Cd 0.201 ( from Cd 0.491 ), 100% sealed front end,[ unspecified contribution from 'grille-block'.
* 2007 Ford / Buckeye, Fusion 999, hydrogen fuel-cell EV, land speed record car, 100% grille-block, delta- 7.3529%
* Gary Eaker, A2 and Aerodyne wind tunnels, comments that, over his career, he's measured cooling system drag at up to 100-counts.
* 2012, Audi A2, Chalmers University, 100% grille-block, delta 9.479%
* 2013 Dodge DART SXT, grille-shutters, delta- 1.72%
* 2017 SPIRIT of EcoModder.com - II, 100% grille-block, delta 7.837%
* 2017 ' generic ' ICE vehicle, Dr. Joseph Katz, 100% grille-block, delta 13.52%

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Old 04-23-2021, 03:11 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Tesla cooling system efficiency

Re: moving the cooling efficiency ( drag ) goal posts
https://insideevs.com/news/339220/te...model-s-p100d/
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Old 04-23-2021, 03:50 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Chevrolet Cobalt SS land speed record grille-block

Sealing the entire front end of the Cobalt was part of the aerodynamic strategy.
No aerodynamic values were given for the project
2006 Chevrolet at the Bonneville Salt Flats - Chevrolet Cobalt SS Front And Side - 1280x960 - Wallpaper
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Old 04-23-2021, 03:58 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Ford / Buckeye Fusion 999 land speed record

FoMoCo used same tricks as GM
https://www.autoblog.com/2007/08/14/...run-at-bonnev/
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Old 04-24-2021, 03:15 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Thanks for the list but I am not sure that it progresses the discussion much.

As I said, most ICE cooling drag values vary from 4-5 per cent up to about 14 per cent, with just a very few cars down around 0-1 per cent, and only one car that I am aware of actually developing measured thrust from its cooling system.
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Old 04-28-2021, 10:45 AM   #6 (permalink)
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most

Quote:
Originally Posted by JulianEdgar View Post
Thanks for the list but I am not sure that it progresses the discussion much.

As I said, most ICE cooling drag values vary from 4-5 per cent up to about 14 per cent, with just a very few cars down around 0-1 per cent, and only one car that I am aware of actually developing measured thrust from its cooling system.
* We'll take you to task in documenting you're assertion. How about 1,000 examples? That might begin to qualify as a statistically significant database.
* The 1983 Ford Probe-IV cooling system produced thrust. If memory serves me, the fans could push the car to 3-miles per hour. However, it was not 'passive' thrust, requiring an ICE to turn an alternator, to produce the electricity which would ultimately power the electric motor-driven, high-static-pressure fans; for both engine cooling and air conditioning. Or stored, ICE-derived, battery power.
* So there's context. The complete entropic chain of custody must be present in the total energy budget of the vehicle.
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Old 04-28-2021, 05:03 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aerohead View Post
* So there's context. The complete entropic chain of custody must be present in the total energy budget of the vehicle.
Really? There's no such chain presented in any technical paper or textbook of which I am aware that relates percentage cooling drag to total drag.

If you want to make up your own new definition of cooling drag, perhaps you should write an SAE paper or textbook that does so?

Me? I am happy to rely on how the real experts define cooling drag.
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Old 04-28-2021, 05:26 PM   #8 (permalink)
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no such

Quote:
Originally Posted by JulianEdgar View Post
Really? There's no such chain presented in any technical paper or textbook of which I am aware that relates percentage cooling drag to total drag.

If you want to make up your own new definition of cooling drag, perhaps you should write an SAE paper or textbook that does so?

Me? I am happy to rely on how the real experts define cooling drag.
The engineer works with whatever is available to stitch the embroidery together.
There's clearly a chain of custody, and each element will have it's own efficiency. Textbook or no, engineers follow the trail, from beginning to end.
If you'll keep re-reading Dr. Wolf, it may dawn on you. He clearly spelled out all the non-aerodynamic caveats responsible for the 911's low drag cooling. The low drag was impossible without these non-aerodynamic technologies.
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Old 04-28-2021, 06:42 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aerohead View Post
The engineer works with whatever is available to stitch the embroidery together.
There's clearly a chain of custody, and each element will have it's own efficiency. Textbook or no, engineers follow the trail, from beginning to end.
If you'll keep re-reading Dr. Wolf, it may dawn on you. He clearly spelled out all the non-aerodynamic caveats responsible for the 911's low drag cooling. The low drag was impossible without these non-aerodynamic technologies.
Now you're just making things up.

Dr Wolf has reviewed my section on this car in my new book, and congratulated me on it in fact.

Such a pity when your theories don't match the facts, isn't it?
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Old 04-30-2021, 11:37 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Dr. Wolf

Quote:
Originally Posted by JulianEdgar View Post
Now you're just making things up.

Dr Wolf has reviewed my section on this car in my new book, and congratulated me on it in fact.

Such a pity when your theories don't match the facts, isn't it?
We have only your word for it.
You've made an omelet. Did you crack the egg on the rim of a bowl, or use a 'Czar' bomb?
Ask him about the mechanical efficiency of :
* high / low-speed electric cooling fans
* pulley-driven alternator
* 7-pulley serpentine drive belt system
* internal combustion, Otto-cycle, engine, as a prime mover
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It's impossible to 'rate' the cooling system 'drag' without this information. He'll understand why you bring it up.
No cooling system is an island.

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