Craig Vetter Quote... - Page 3 - Fuel Economy, Hypermiling, EcoModding News and Forum

dcb · 08-21-2011, 04:29 PM

I understand, and even sent him a link to this thread that he might have the opportunity to clarify things. P&G in countless situations is arguably the best/most affordable solution availalbe right now, and people use it, a lot. it is in part how we drive, and part of an ever changing public perception, which includes being more open to things like streamlining a motorcycle I hope.

As well as being more open to not demanding over-powered, over-sized, vehicles I also hope. On that note, I have to say I really enjoy the cb125, small and easy to throw it around, kick start is awesome, haven't even looked at the 250 in months. More people have come up to me and asked about it than any other bike (hey, is that a 125? Yup, it was garbage picked...).

Besides, everyone does stuff that they wouldn't do in front of a cop. Just not buying the stated position, not a fan of that particular vetter page at all at the moment. If he could rephrase it so it sounds less like "p&g is weird but aeromodding a scooter to be streamlined and carry groceries isn't", then I will reconsider. He has a history in aero/fairings, and might not even be open to hypermiling techniques.

Frank Lee · 08-21-2011, 09:18 PM

Heh- finally looked at the Vetter link. I remember when everyone thought that when aero became important for cars, they'd all look the same. Well, a lot of cars do look the same now but it isn't because of aero. We can have a wide variety of aero bikes, trikes, and quads if that is what we want.

user removed · 08-21-2011, 10:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dcb

I understand, and even sent him a link to this thread that he might have the opportunity to clarify things. P&G in countless situations is arguably the best/most affordable solution availalbe right now, and people use it, a lot. it is in part how we drive, and part of an ever changing public perception, which includes being more open to things like streamlining a motorcycle I hope.

As well as being more open to not demanding over-powered, over-sized, vehicles I also hope. On that note, I have to say I really enjoy the cb125, small and easy to throw it around, kick start is awesome, haven't even looked at the 250 in months. More people have come up to me and asked about it than any other bike (hey, is that a 125? Yup, it was garbage picked...).

Besides, everyone does stuff that they wouldn't do in front of a cop. Just not buying the stated position, not a fan of that particular vetter page at all at the moment. If he could rephrase it so it sounds less like "p&g is weird but aeromodding a scooter to be streamlined and carry groceries isn't", then I will reconsider. He has a history in aero/fairings, and might not even be open to hypermiling techniques.

When I read about your "garbage picked" CB 125, for some reason I remembered Rogers Hornsby. He like to pick out the old bats that no one else thought had any life left in them.
Some career stats.
Rogers Hornsby - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

regards
Mech

cvetter · 08-21-2011, 11:18 PM

Aug. 21, 2011: Craig says: Folks on the Ecomodder forum seem to be not happy about this. Let us assume that "Speeding up and coasting" is effective in reducing fuel use. "Making yourself real small" behind a small fairing is effective, too. Such are techniques for winning fuel economy contests, not the full goals of the Vetter Challenges. My goal is to encourage you to develop a truly useful vehicle.

When my contribution is over, I want to have helped to develop a formula that results in motorcycles that are so useful and so attractive that we really want to drive them. Consuming the least fuel is just one aspect of my goal. Comfort and usefulness are equally important. What good is great economy if we don't want to use it? Or can't use it for simple chores like getting the groceries?

The winning machines of the 1980-85 Vetter Fuel Economy Contests showed us what was possible. But they did not change vehicle design. They ended up in museums. Why? Because we focused entirely on "the least amount of energy."
This time around, I want to end up with solutions for the way we really drive today.

To restate my goals: I want to know how to consume the least fuel, measured in dollars and cents per mile, in real driving conditions like 70 mph into a 30 mph headwind, sitting upright and comfortable, with a useful load like four bags of groceries. My streamlined Helix, does this for about a nickel a mile. Equally, if not more important, my streamlined Helix is my first choice machine.

Already, other Challengers have proven that they can “beat me” in fuel cost. But as you can see, fuel cost is just one part of the design goal. So much of what I want to achieve is subjective. "Not ending up in museums" is subjective. "Being the first choice vehicle" is subjective. "Comfort" is subjective.

Four bags and fuel cost are the only goals that are quantifiable. I can see that the engineers among you are frustrated by such subjectivity.

Recognizing the value of subjective goals is what I do as a designer.
Craig Vetter August 21, 2011

Frank Lee · 08-21-2011, 11:36 PM

I think the easy way to put it is, you want a vehicle and driving technique that your Mom or Grandmother could use (assuming most Moms and Grammas are not willing to tuck and P&G and etc.)

dcb · 08-22-2011, 12:37 AM

Hey Craig, thx for making it clear.

BTW, what happened with the streamliner, it looked pretty comfy, had some storage, and got 125ish without special technique (iirc)?

alvaro84 · 08-22-2011, 12:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frank Lee

I think the easy way to put it is, you want a vehicle and driving technique that your Mom or Grandmother could use (assuming most Moms and Grammas are not willing to tuck and P&G and etc.)

It sounds a lot better than the first quote.

cvetter · 08-22-2011, 12:56 AM

My streamliner of 1980 is on display at the AMA Hall of Fame Museum in Ohio:

Craig Vetter high mileage fuel economy motorcycle

In the era of 55 mpg, it actually got 108 mpg. in my 1982 contest. It would have cooked its air cooled engine at today's 70, into a 30 mph headwind. It was pretty good but awkward to get on. For me, anyway. Ever since a horrible get-off at Road Atlanta on my RD350 in 1976, I have had a hip problem making it hard to throw my leg over anything high. Anyway, I have found that I just need a scooter configuration. Just sit and ride.

If you are referring to the current Helix, I ride it... refine it... refine it, etc.

dcb · 08-22-2011, 01:01 AM

Thx, also what would be your ruling on deliberate lean burn in a competition like this?

cvetter · 08-22-2011, 01:47 AM

Deliberate lean burn? I am just a fairing designer and am out of my element in trying to answer this question. Let me tell you a little story about the above mentioned streamliner in 1981. We did not know much about getting the best mileage so we ran it lean. Too lean. We burned a hole in its piston en route to the contest. Joe Minton was scheduled to drive that day. We pulled the head and my brother, Bruce suggested that we save the day by putting a countersunk screw into the hole and go back to stock jets. It worked. If you pulled the head today, the screw is still in the piston.

If you asking about changing the fuel-air ratios? Personally, I don't care. But in the unlikely chance that some DOT official comes sniffing around, it is your responsibility to be legal.