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Old 08-19-2011, 10:50 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Craig Vetter Quote...

Interesting quote from Craig Vetter about "riding style" on the last Craig Vetter Fuel Economy Challenge -

Bottom of this page: 2011 Craig Vetter Fuel Economy Challenge rules discussion

"Speaking of the way we really drive...

Rumor has it that one (or more) of the Challengers exhibited an usual (I believe he meant unusual) riding style. I don't know if there is an official name for it but it is best described as follows:
"Speed up and coast. Speed up and coast. Speed up and coast...."

Apparently, this technique is known to produce superior fuel mileage. But is it the way we really drive?

I don't think so.

Would you drive your car this way with your family?

Would you drive this way with a Highway Patrolman right behind you?

I don't think so.

Who'd have thought this might be an issue?

Effective immediately, no more "speed up and coast" style driving.
"

Isn't it surprising that one of the largest supporters of high mileage cycles isn't familiar with, and doesn't approve of, the Pulse and Glide technique?

How could Matsu achieve 470 MPG back in the 80s without it? He even disassembled the trans to add a neutral available from top gear.

I don't get it...


Jay

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Old 08-19-2011, 11:07 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Might have been the era the quote is from. Without fuel shut-off coasting wouldn't be as effective...

I checked the link and think he's looking for a way to "make it fair".
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Old 08-20-2011, 02:09 AM   #3 (permalink)
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It's all about the minimum Cd anyway .
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Old 08-20-2011, 02:38 AM   #4 (permalink)
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I really drive this way. Even with my girlfriend on the back seat. It just happens that we have very different approaches to achieve better FE. I'm too doubtful/lazy to aeromod my motorcycle. Craig is too doubtful/lazy to slow down or coast...
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Old 08-20-2011, 05:13 AM   #5 (permalink)
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What surprises me is Craig wants people to think and act out of the box when building or modding bikes to be more fuel efficient, only to squeeze them back in when it comes to using a more efficient driving technique, because HE doesn't ride that way.

Well Craig, the way we really ride is without streamlined fairings all around, so why not let those come off as well ?

And what really fuels our bikes isn't Diesel, so out they go as well.
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Old 08-20-2011, 05:24 AM   #6 (permalink)
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"if you come up with a lot of rules that force people to have to build a bike that looks exactly like yours, you will pretty soon find yourself having a Vetter Challenge with only yourself riding in it."

Craig would better heed the warning.

Who's going to develop a bike to possibly have it washed out of the competition by the next revision of the rules ?

Those folks are thinking outside your box, Craig.
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Old 08-20-2011, 01:20 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Craig Vetter is conducting an experament as we all know. every experament requires controls in order to be meaningful, the rules are the controls and the rules are changing to get to the answer he/we are looking for. I use most of the hypermiling methods recomended on this site. We ecomodders are a vanishingly small group as a proportion of the driving public as we all know. Craigs question is about the vehicle not the driving of the vehicle. I have yet to see a set of rules that keep everyone happy, each rule sends us off in a deferent direction, Craigs rules are no different.
I for one had a good laugh when I read his comments and thought dam my secret wepon has been found and now I will have to pay even more attention to the aerodynamics. Which is exactly what the rules are aimed at.
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Old 08-20-2011, 02:25 PM   #8 (permalink)
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I thought the Craig Vetter contest was to find the best fuel economy vehicle, not the most efficient driver.

Short of having a robot drive each vehicle, there needs to be some uniform driving guidelines. Like the old non-sense MPG records in Guinness book of world records, where they get astronomical values, but never exceed 15 MPH.

Good to see the latest "Real World driving" record with a Jetta applies to the average driver VW Jetta TDI sets Guinness World Record of 58.82 mpg
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Old 08-20-2011, 10:34 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MorphDaCivic View Post
I thought the Craig Vetter contest was to find the best fuel economy vehicle, not the most efficient driver.

Short of having a robot drive each vehicle, there needs to be some uniform driving guidelines. Like the old non-sense MPG records in Guinness book of world records, where they get astronomical values, but never exceed 15 MPH.
(SNIP)
Technically, I think the Craig Vetter Fuel Economy Challenge is won by the cycle that delivers the lowest cost per mile - gas, diesel, electric, whatever.

As we all know, the driver/rider make a huge difference in the FE equation. The best drivers/riders will maximize the vehicle's potential buy using whatever driving/riding style they feel delivers the best efficiency.

To take the rider out of the equation you could just run the vehicles on the dyno at the same speed,with the same amount of fuel, and see which runs longer - but that's not real world either.

Vetter does have rules that keep a cycle from running too slowly. If I'm not mistaken they have a control vehicle that runs at the back of the pack. If it passes you, you're out.

I just can't understand why he feels that P&G riding wouldn't be feasible in the real world. Many riders here have produced amazing MPG numbers with very basic cycles using P&G on the street.


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Old 08-20-2011, 11:22 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkv357 View Post
Interesting quote from Craig Vetter about "riding style" on the last Craig Vetter Fuel Economy Challenge -

Bottom of this page: 2011 Craig Vetter Fuel Economy Challenge rules discussion

"Speaking of the way we really drive...

Rumor has it that one (or more) of the Challengers exhibited an usual (I believe he meant unusual) riding style. I don't know if there is an official name for it but it is best described as follows:
"Speed up and coast. Speed up and coast. Speed up and coast...."

Apparently, this technique is known to produce superior fuel mileage. But is it the way we really drive?

I don't think so.

Would you drive your car this way with your family?

Would you drive this way with a Highway Patrolman right behind you?

I don't think so.

Who'd have thought this might be an issue?

Effective immediately, no more "speed up and coast" style driving.
"

Isn't it surprising that one of the largest supporters of high mileage cycles isn't familiar with, and doesn't approve of, the Pulse and Glide technique?

How could Matsu achieve 470 MPG back in the 80s without it? He even disassembled the trans to add a neutral available from top gear.

I don't get it...


Jay
Maybe it's because Craig would like to separate driving technique from vehicle efficiency. I don't think anyone here would argue the point that each improvement has it's individual merits, but to properly compare either improvement they must be considered separately.

The Automotive X prize contest did basically the same thing.

Personally I have always advocated the incorporation of the techniques perfected in hypermiling into the vehicles operational capabilities and power train configuration. In essence a car or truck that hypermiles itself, using a pulse a glide technique that does not equate to a change in speed of the vehicle, which uses the mass of the vehicle as capacitive storage, but requires changes in speed, to a form of energy storage that is efficient enough to allow for storage and release of energy effectively enough to take advantage of BSFC points for the engine regardless of the sum of losses at any individual vehicle speed.

With the current 15 MPH average speed specialized vehicles approaching 11,000 MPG, using the burn and coast (engine off) technique it would be an unfair comparison if one driver relied on hypermiling skills to achieve a better overall mileage.

The funny thing is as aero improves, engine efficiency falls further from the best BSFC unless higher overall drive ratios are applied. Thus one benefit is somewhat countered by a corresponding decrease in efficiency. Capacitive storage allows this situation to be resolved, but it requires extreme efficiency in wheel to wheel and power plant to wheel efficiency, assuming in the case of wheel to wheel that there will be situations where regeneration is effective.

regards
Mech

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