Do Hybrids Really Make Sense?

[RedDevil]

Originally Posted by Fat Charlie

What's sad is how few other platforms have that done to them. By and large, hybrid isn't a powertrain choice, it's a statement! An adventure! A lifestyle choice!

Ahhh... for some it would be.

For me it was a financial decision.
My wife lost her job.
I started working fulltime, driving a lot more.
My old car was on its last legs.
I needed a car that was reliable and economical, yet safe and reasonably comfortable, with a big trunk for the oversized holiday luggage.
I also have tinnitus - ringing ears, gets worse on high noise levels.
Test drove some diesels, very disappointing (by my likes and needs).
Test drove a Fit Hybrid, was blown away by it.
Test drove an Insight too as the salesman insisted. Oh well, nice enough.
Got a crazy sharp deal on an used Insight...

So it was purely financial.
Appreciating it as an adventurous lifestyle statement came later.

For my dad the Fit Hybrid was the only auto trannied small car that he could get in and out of and drive with ease in reasonable comfort.
Coming from a top trimmed Subaru Legacy hr was only expecting a downgrade, but he's quite happy how it turned out.
Being able to stash a pair of Moulton bikes behind the front seats is a nice bonus for him. Thank you Honda Magic seats and flat floor - the gas tank is under the front seats and the hybrid battery is under the trunk floor.

I doubt my dad gets the lifestyle thing yet. He is quite wary of anything popular.

[EVmetro]

I have noticed when somebody comes up to one of my EV conversions at a car show, and the questions start to flow, people almost always want to know if I have considered using alternators on my wheels, solar panels on roof, or other means of collecting free energy. These questions flow so naturally, even from people who have college science in their backgrounds, and I think that the reason for this is that we can't see energy in the same tangible way that we see two gears meshing. Without reading up on perpetual motion and thermal dynamics, all we have to go by is what we feel in our hearts, what the media presents to us, and marketing strategies.

I have done a lot of reading and studying about hybrid technology, but I still don't know everything, so this thread is a little deeper than just trolling the hybrid section to let everybody know about my distaste for hybrids. I am very interested in finding out if there is some scientific explanation that shows how hybrids really do use less fuel than a comparable ICE. So far, all I can see that is unique about hybrids, is that they are able to harvest a portion of braking energy and distribute it at the appropriate time. It would appear that all the hybrid hype is centered exclusively around this one feature, so I want to know if there are other unique features that can only be found on a hybrid, and I want to know quantitatively how much of this harvested energy is wasted in the process and in hauling it around. What RedDevil said about a hybrid package being a complete system makes really good sense, but I would think that an ICE only car could be developed as well. Maybe the market does not support such a vehicle, but I guess I am more curious about the science of it all. Showing mpg claims or statements is somewhat scientific, but it does not show how exactly the technology works better than just having an ICE. Especially if the hybrid vehicle was designed with fuel efficiency in mind.

[MetroMPG]

Most hybrids also use the Atkinson Cycle in the ICE, which offers greater thermal efficiency than a conventional ICE (Otto Cycle), at the cost of reduced torque. The electric side of the system fills in to provide additional torque demanded by the driver (outside of what the ice can deliver on its own).

That's another unique feature of hybrids.

Also, I'm surprised that someone interested in EV's finds hybrids "distasteful". For many drivers, hybrids are a "gateway drug" that leads to EV ownership.

[nimblemotors]

I can get 60mpg when I 'hypermile' my prius, really not hard either.
No way an Echo could do that.

Regen brakes gets a lot of 'attention' because it is like 'free energy', but it is not very significant; unless you drive like my son drove his Prius, race to a stoplight, then jam the brakes, race to the next stoplight.
He would get only 45mpg.

[cowmeat]

Maybe regen's not important in a Prius, but it is in a G1 Insight!

[gone-ot]

As long as there is "Range Anxiety" in motorists minds, the pure EV will be perceived as being reigned-in by its albatross "umbilical" electric-cord.

I "wanted" a Plug-In Prius (PiP) but couldn't BUY one in Arizona because Toyota quit selling them in Arizona when Arizona backed out of CARB.

[EVmetro]

Originally Posted by nimblemotors

I can get 60mpg when I 'hypermile' my prius, really not hard either.
No way an Echo could do that.

Regen brakes gets a lot of 'attention' because it is like 'free energy', but it is not very significant; unless you drive like my son drove his Prius, race to a stoplight, then jam the brakes, race to the next stoplight.
He would get only 45mpg.

Nimblemotors, it is cool to see somebody on this forum who I know. I guess the ecomodding, and electric car community is kind of a small world.

Sometimes I stew about the idea of getting my hands on a Prius and converting it to strictly ICE, with the intent of finding out the difference would be in fuel economy. This is not a very realistic thing to do since so much of it is integrated, but it is a neat thought. I would put my money on an all ICE Prius for driving a long distance on flat ground, but I don't know enough to predict an around town winner.

[nimblemotors]

The extra weight of a hybrid is not really significant on a flat highway.
The prius engine atkins tuning has no low-end torque.
I don't quite get what your point is? That a hybrid is some kind of rip-off,
and the car companies have a conspiracy to produce low MPG cars, except the hybrids? The Prius was toyota's attempt to build the highest MPG car they could (and be driven just the same as current cars)

I have pointed out before, 'we' have collectively spent over $1 billion extra on hybrids, and from all that money spent, have ZERO EV infrastructure from it, so while I love the Prius, it has not been a good long-term 'energy policy'
for this country. The good news though, is there have been millions of prius sold already, and so the EZOne3 can take advantage of this to build an all-electric car in the USA using all local labor, not built in a factory in Japan or China.

Originally Posted by EVmetro

Nimblemotors, it is cool to see somebody on this forum who I know. I guess the ecomodding, and electric car community is kind of a small world.

Sometimes I stew about the idea of getting my hands on a Prius and converting it to strictly ICE, with the intent of finding out the difference would be in fuel economy. This is not a very realistic thing to do since so much of it is integrated, but it is a neat thought. I would put my money on an all ICE Prius for driving a long distance on flat ground, but I don't know enough to predict an around town winner.

[EVmetro]

I have limited knowledge about the Atkins motor, but if I am understanding what is being said here, the hybrid advantage information that I am seeking is in this atkins motor, which is a motor that would only make sense when used in conjunction with an electric motor. This is as far as I can go on this quest until I research the atkins motor. The harvesting of wasted braking energy did not seem significant enough by itself, but I will dig into this new data. Thanks for all of the replies, and for the atkins lead.

[user removed]

Animated Engines - Atkinson

Although it may seem totally different the atkinson cycle engines have higher static compression while actual compression is somewhat controlled by camshaft phasing. Combined with canshaft overlap control you can achieve higher efficiencies at lower throttle positions with higher effective compression and lower pumping losses.

The original atkinson patent was developed to circumvent ottos 4 cycle patents almost 150 years ago.

regards
mech