Do Hybrids Really Make Sense?

[Hersbird]

So take this comparison
Diesel makes a comeback: Cruze vs. TDI vs. Prius - News and reviews - Boston.com
Now after 7 years when you finally break even with the Prius has is the resale of a 7 year old TDI compared to a 7 year old Prius? What if you decided to keep them and keep driving at that point what car needs expensive batteries and which is known to keep going 200-300k without drama? What if you did this same comparison with a 1.0 ecoboost Fiesta which is over $10,000 less then a Prius and gets even closer economy, I don't think you would ever recover the cost.

[ME_Andy]

I believe that a well-designed ICE car is more efficient than an identical (but heavier and more complicated) hybrid. Prii and Insights seem to top out around 70 mpg, but there are ICE cars here that beat that.

Look at the Urba Centurion that runs off a little diesel engine and gets 200+ mpg. You can't beat that! In fact, it's about tied with the VW carbon-fiber, plug-in diesel hybrid XL1.

[Hersbird]

OK so here is a fiesta vs Prius c. The cost is only $5000 and they got over 60 mpg with the Prius. Still based on 15,000 miles a year and $3 gas it would take a very long time to make up $5000. Over 16 years.
2015 Ford Fiesta SFE vs 2014 Toyota Prius c : Car Reviews

[jamesqf]

Originally Posted by Xist

For my normal commute to work, I know that if I maintain the speed limit (40 mph, although my GPS shows 37), I need to start coasting two blocks before the intersection or I will need to brake. I can EOC or stay in-gear a little longer and hope DFCO kicks in. In a hybrid, the DFCO would regenerate, but also slow down faster, but isn't it more economical to time the light and never brake, regenerative or otherwise?

It might be true that in urban driving you can time lights, and not brake much at all. However, not everyone does a lot of urban driving. If your usual driving happens to involve descending 4000 vertical ft or so of switchbacked mountain road, you appreciate being able to brake :-) Or in my case, use the MIMA control to force regen without braking.

And for the multiple thousand dollar hybrid battery pack replacements, if your (not under warranty) conventional car blows an engine or transmission, do you spend multiple thousands ordering a replacement from the dealer? Or do you go to a salvage yard and spend maybe a quarter of that amount? With the 1st gen Insight, at least, removing the battery pack (which I do for a rebalancing every year or two) only takes a couple of hours.

[redpoint5]

Originally Posted by Hersbird

What if you did this same comparison with a 1.0 ecoboost Fiesta which is over $10,000 less then a Prius and gets even closer economy, I don't think you would ever recover the cost.

I don't think people have any idea what sort of car the Prius is. My mom keeps calling it a tiny car, and asks me what it's like driving the little thing. A Prius and a Fiesta aren't comparable vehicles. I could just as easily compare a moped and a Fiesta and then ask, why not get the moped that is $10k less expensive?

As already stated, the proper way to evaluate hybrid vs non-hybrid is by looking at models that have both options. Anyone trying to do wacky comparisons like a Fiesta to a Prius is being intentionally misleading, and really has no interest in knowing what the value of they hybrid components are.

Originally Posted by ME_Andy

I believe that a well-designed ICE car is more efficient than an identical (but heavier and more complicated) hybrid.

Well, your belief is wrong. The explanation has already been discussed in this thread. That said, choose the right tool for the job. If someone has a 100 mile commute that is nearly all freeway driving, then a gasser with the proper gearing and aero profile might be the way to go. Stop and go urban driving; a hybrid tends to be the right tool.

Here is proof -> Compare Side-by-Side

The Camry gets 28 MPG, and the hybrid gets 41.
The Accord gets 31 MPG, and the hybrid gets 47.

Prii and Insights seem to top out around 70 mpg, but there are ICE cars here that beat that.

Look at the Urba Centurion that runs off a little diesel engine and gets 200+ mpg. You can't beat that!

Sure I can beat that. A bicycle gets like a million miles per gallon. Comparing the Prius to the Urba Centurion is pointless. If you want a 15 horsepower car that accelerates like molasses, has no modern conveniences or entertainment, and a poor safety rating, then its easy to get good fuel economy. On top of that, the Urba Centurion would get even better fuel economy if it was designed as a hybrid.

[EVmetro]

I tend to prejudge the Prius. It seems so common to come across a Prius going 55 in the left lane, and not exhibiting any signs of Eco driving etiquette. It usually happens when I want to be going 75, but then there is the Prius trying to up his mpg from 50 up to 51. Then the EV snob in me kicks in since I am getting twice the economy as the Prius, even at 75. I would guess that there are other hybrids that congest traffic for that extra 1 mpg, but they are harder to notice if they are most often seen in their ICE only format. The Prius on the other hand is immediately identified as a hybrid.

[ME_Andy]

RP, you missed the part where I compared Centurion against the most efficient hybrid ever made. Plug-in, too. Somehow, the little home built car holds its own.

Too bad nobody's ever made a diesel Prius. That would be interesting.

[RedDevil]

Originally Posted by jcp123

Sorry...didn't mean to offend you?

I was just trying to keep it on topic. No offense taken

Originally Posted by jcp123

... I don't really care for the hybrid "stigma" - I don't want to be lumped into the long-haired, stoned out, Eco-freak segment of society.

Not even then

[RedDevil]

Originally Posted by EVmetro

Although I do not know enough about your insight to know for sure how yours runs, it sounds like the ICE and the electric motor work as a system. If you lost either the electric part or the ICE part, I would expect that your car would not perform as well as either a pure ICE, or a pure EV.

Having the ICE and the electric motor integrated as a system in a hybrid is what is making it hard for me to see if the technology really does add up. Apparently, the ICE is being used to charge the battery for the electric motor, but it is doing it at an an advantageous time. I don't know this for sure, but I do know that there is not enough regen energy available to supply enough energy to supplement the ICE enough to make up for what the ICE lacks in power. Using the ICE to supply energy for the electric motor does not make sense, but I am speculating that this is what is happening, and that it is happening at an advantageous time to minimize the penalty for doing it.

You are describing a series hybrid.

The Insight is a parallel hybrid; both the engine and the motor power the transmission.
As the motor is bolted to the crankshaft it has to turn over the engine in EV mode, using fuel cutoff and a special VTEC camshaft to keep friction to a minimum. It is simple and saves weight - no flywheel is needed (and no alternator).
The EV motor can also start the engine, help it rev up or just provide more torque for aceleration. Likewise it can harvest electricity isn situations where the engine is running on light load, making it open the throttle further, reducing pumping losses and increasing its efficiency.

When not able to use the IMA battery it uses its 12V powered starter motor. It is no different from an ordinary small engined car with a CVT tranny then.
It is not handicapped or such, just not nice to drive either.

The Prius is a different animal as the motors are integrated in separate parts of the planetary HSD gearbox.
Without the hybrid battery the gearbox will not work and the car is bricked.EDIT: this isn't so, thanks Planetaire for pointing it out.

A series hybrid (1st gen Volt, BMW i3) uses the ICE to generate electricity and lets the EV motor power the car. Series hybrids do usually have some pure EV capacity and have the ICE mainly to extend the range.

The Accord hybrid is a mix of both, the ICE can either drive a generator to power a motor driving the wheels or drive the wheels directly.
Directly as in not using a gearbox, it does not have one.
I bet it can drive without the battery but that would be interesting.

[planetaire]

Originally Posted by RedDevil

...

The Prius is a different animal as the motors are integrated in separate parts of the planetary HSD gearbox.
Without the hybrid battery the gearbox will not work and the car is bricked.
...

I would say:
-yes, if the HV battery is deconnected or have an open cell, the engine will not start at the begining of your trip and the car is bricked.
-but if the engine can be started, you are not bricked. You can use the "gearbox" without the HV battery. This append for exemple when the hsd decide that there are too unbalanced cells. He start the engine and you drive with an ordinary car, so no start/stop, no regen ... No current will come from/to the HV battery. You will then use more gasoline.. Usually you have warnings on the dashboard. Usually the battery is not dead suddenly, with years internal resistance is increased and capacity reduced. A diyer can replace only the cells that are "bad".