Do Hybrids Really Make Sense?

[oldtamiyaphile]

Originally Posted by ksa8907

One of my classmates is building a hydraulicly assisted wheelchair. I believe somebody at university of michigan made a hydraulic assisted bicycle.

Not exactly the same, but the concept is there. His budget is $3,000 though, so hold onto your hat when it comes to parts.

Before diesel-electric locomotives there were diesel-hydraulic locomotives. For many reasons, diesel-electrics took over.

[Hersbird]

Here in a review they say around $20,000 for a new 2000 Insight. Then they say, "When asked if Honda would be selling the Insight at a loss, a company official rolled his eyes and said, "Yeah, that would be safe to assume.""

Honda Insight - Instrumented Test - Car Reviews - Car and Driver

Then in their long term update they say they drove it 40,000 miles and averaged 48 MPG. They admit they drove it like like they would any other car they test. Some of their drivers did better but still 48 MPG average over lots of miles.

2000 Honda Insight - Long-Term Road Test - Car Reviews - Car and Driver

[Ecky]

Originally Posted by Hersbird

Here in a review they say around $20,000 for a new 2000 Insight. Then they say, "When asked if Honda would be selling the Insight at a loss, a company official rolled his eyes and said, "Yeah, that would be safe to assume.""

Honda Insight - Instrumented Test - Car Reviews - Car and Driver

Then in their long term update they say they drove it 40,000 miles and averaged 48 MPG. They admit they drove it like like they would any other car they test. Some of their drivers did better but still 48 MPG average over lots of miles.

2000 Honda Insight - Long-Term Road Test - Car Reviews - Car and Driver

I don't think I've ever seen a used Insight with a lifetime mileage that low. Most tend to be in the upper 50's or low 60's, in the hands of normal drivers.

[IamIan]

Originally Posted by oldtamiyaphile

I know, but with a 5-6 speed manual I have little trouble staying on that BSFC island and then it's just a matter of watching load.

Sadly no BSFC graph can be found

How can you possibly know you are in the high efficiency BSFC island if you don't have the BSFC of your ICE to know where that island is ???

Each ICE differs significantly.

Originally Posted by oldtamiyaphile

hybrid could still artificially add/reduce load, which the ICE can't.

Yup.
That's the same kind of HEV advantage for better potential P&G I mentioned previously.

Originally Posted by oldtamiyaphile

You'd end up at least 150kg lighter than the Fiat, and the CD would go from .36 to .25(?), slightly smaller frontal area too. Teamed with suitable gearing, I can't imagine why that combo wouldn't beat the original Fiat engine donor by some margin.

Originally Posted by oldtamiyaphile

It would actually accelerate better than the Insight too.

Maybe.
That will depend on what the Low RPM torque output is of that other ICE you want to transplant ... not the peak best case for that ICE , but the low RPM case ... the IMA HEV system in the Insight provides a large amount of low RPM torque ... around doubling the torque from the ICE at some points.

Do you have a RPM vs torque graph for the ICE in order to compare?

[IamIan]

Originally Posted by Hersbird

Here in a review they say around $20,000 for a new 2000 Insight. Then they say, "When asked if Honda would be selling the Insight at a loss, a company official rolled his eyes and said, "Yeah, that would be safe to assume.""

But AFAIK the source of that .. 'loss' ... is mostly the R&D .. which Honda then used for their other vehicles ... I don't see why it makes sense to put the cost on the shoulders of one model of car .. and the benefits across the shoulders of all the others... maybe for a tax write off PoV ... but from my PoV ... any R&D used for any other model should get spread out over all those other models... because that R&D cost was not just to make that one model.

AFAIK .. if the R&D is distributed across every model that Honda used it for .. each Gen1 Insight was sold and turned a profit for the retail price they charged ... ~$20k ... I've never seen any solid evidence showing otherwise... but I have seen evidence in favor of this.

Originally Posted by Ecky

I don't think I've ever seen a used Insight with a lifetime mileage that low. Most tend to be in the upper 50's or low 60's, in the hands of normal drivers.

Lowest I've ever seen was 19MPG over 1,935 Miles ... YMMV as they say ... if you sit idle in a shopping center parking lot with the AC on ... and let it 'warm up' for 5-10 minutes in the winter each day ... etc ... etc... yeah you'll get crappy MPG any kind of car you drive.

[jamesqf]

Originally Posted by oldtamiyaphile

I know from memory they were in the $40k bracket - the buyers guide even makes a point of how expensive they were. There aren't any real tariffs (5% maybe at the time on the wholesale price), and a 21% sales tax at the time, but these applied to the Civic as well.

For comparison the 1st Gen Prius cost $40k new.

So now we seem to have a general "cars are almost twice as expensive in Australia as in the US" problem, because the MSRP for the 2000 Prius was $19,995 US. I've no idea what could be the cause of the difference, other than taxes or import duties.

[cRiPpLe_rOoStEr]

I don't see the point about a "loss" in each 1st-gen Insight or Prius sold. They served to the purpose of highlighting the respective hybrid setups from Honda and Toyota, and the developments applied to them were ultimately expanded to other models. Developing technology is usually expensive at all, so even if there is an allegged "loss" on each halo-hybrid sold there is a return on the sales of the hybrid versions of higher-volume models.

[oldtamiyaphile]

[QUOTE=IamIan;471209]How can you possibly know you are in the high efficiency BSFC island if you don't have the BSFC of your ICE to know where that island is ???[quote]

I don't have a BSFC graph for the 500, but when I say my engine is either at BSFC or off, I refer to my daily driver Renault.

Yup.
That's the same kind of HEV advantage for better potential P&G I mentioned previously.

Actually as I was driving to work today, I realised I can still vary engine load 'artificially' by choosing when to run the A/C. Many new cars have inteligent algorithms controlling the alternator and A/C that work this way automatically.

That will depend on what the Low RPM torque output is of that other ICE you want to transplant ... not the peak best case for that ICE , but the low RPM case ... the IMA HEV system in the Insight provides a large amount of low RPM torque ... around doubling the torque from the ICE at some points.

Do you have a RPM vs torque graph for the ICE in order to compare?

The Fiat does 0-62 in 11 seconds, the stock 1st Gen did it in 11.5, the Fiat is 100kg heavier stock and would be 150kg heavier than the proposed finished car. Hard to see it not being faster as the turbo produces 80% of peak torque from 1500rpm.

[oldtamiyaphile]

Originally Posted by jamesqf

So now we seem to have a general "cars are almost twice as expensive in Australia as in the US" problem, because the MSRP for the 2000 Prius was $19,995 US. I've no idea what could be the cause of the difference, other than taxes or import duties.

Not really, the current Mitsubishi Mirage is about $2500 cheaper here for example compared to the US price. I'm going to stick with the conclusion that Honda and Toyota didn't take a 50% loss for cars sold here, like they seem to have in the US, our price was the 'real' one.

As mentioned a few pages ago, you could have bought a Suzuki Swift for $13k, or a Gen 1 for 49K, that gave the Insight a roughly 4 million kilometre break even point.

[user removed]

So after 169 posts the conclusion is hybrids are not cost effective in Australia. They might be cost effective in the US, depending on how you calculate cost effectiveness and that you buy one used so the rich idiot who bought it new is making it cost effective for you.

regards
mech