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Old 07-05-2011, 01:27 AM   #61 (permalink)
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To be incompetent implies that you don't know what you are doing. To be evil implies malicious intent. There is no way with the decisions being made by these automakers who have been in business for as long as they have, that there hasn't been collusion with other business sectors.
I'd expand your definition of incompetence quite a bit. An incompetent could, for instance, be ok at what they're doing, but suffer from "confirmation bias", which is the tendency to give much greater weight to information that supports your opinions, and less to information that contradicts it. So the automakers build their big gas guzzlers, and the fraction of the customer base (and automotive press, etc) that likes that sort of car forms a cheering section. The automakers hear the cheering, think "Oh, we're doing a great job, let's make next year's models even bigger!", and ignore the ever-larger market segment that's taking its checkbook to the Honda & Toyota dealers.

As for the conspiracy, remember the Dortmunder family motto: "Quid lucrum istic mihi est?", which translates to "What's in it for me?" So if the automakers join this big conspiracy, what's in it for them?

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Old 07-05-2011, 07:59 AM   #62 (permalink)
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Think about it. What major corporation, regardless of discipline, has only one financial stream? It would naive to think that when it comes to their portfolios that everything they do is related to what they may have started with when the company was founded.

The responsibility, legally, for corporations is to maximize profits for their share holders. There is no moral imperative about how it's done, as long as it's done. If you have been around long enough to become "Too Big To Fail", you know how to hustle and game the system, and even a failure can be used to make money. This is the name of the game after all, and there is nothing new under the sun.

Now as far as what you mentioned concerning losing a market segment, it's not like they are not aware of what is going on, they know full well what's up. Everyone knows what everyone is doing most of the time, because everyone is either buying or stealing each others technology. This is old hat.

So what's in it for them? Remember the Chauffer's Motto, " Whatever You Imagine."
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Old 07-05-2011, 12:26 PM   #63 (permalink)
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my mother (now in her 70's) told me of a car produced back when she was in her teens, that would never need repaired and got excellent gas mileage, she said they scrapped the entire project due to it not needing any mechanical repairs.
Im not 100% sure how accurate that is since my mother isnt really interested in anything to do with cars, plus it was 50-60 yrs ago

that said, Ive always known the car manufacturers have the ability to get much more from their cars than what they put out on the market, not only that, but in the US they "dumb" them down even further.
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Old 07-05-2011, 03:33 PM   #64 (permalink)
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also, what frustrates me the most, is my old 93 MX6 LS (with a 2.5l v6) got about the same mpg as my protege5, which is 10 years newer !
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Old 07-05-2011, 04:09 PM   #65 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jamesqf View Post
I'd expand your definition of incompetence quite a bit. An incompetent could, for instance, be ok at what they're doing, but suffer from "confirmation bias", which is the tendency to give much greater weight to information that supports your opinions, and less to information that contradicts it. So the automakers build their big gas guzzlers, and the fraction of the customer base (and automotive press, etc) that likes that sort of car forms a cheering section. The automakers hear the cheering, think "Oh, we're doing a great job, let's make next year's models even bigger!", and ignore the ever-larger market segment that's taking its checkbook to the Honda & Toyota dealers.

As for the conspiracy, remember the Dortmunder family motto: "Quid lucrum istic mihi est?", which translates to "What's in it for me?" So if the automakers join this big conspiracy, what's in it for them?
I would argue that confirmation bias dominates almost every post on almost every forum in existence, yours and mine inclusive. It is the subsequent supporting argument, the preponderance of evidence, that makes the case for what we are writing.



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Old 07-05-2011, 04:33 PM   #66 (permalink)
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also, what frustrates me the most, is my old 93 MX6 LS (with a 2.5l v6) got about the same mpg as my protege5, which is 10 years newer !
Is the protege5 faster and bigger?

I disslike american cars because I feel they are inferior to the japanese. Everyone says they are just as good now, but everyone has said that for the last 20 years, and I haven't seen much evidence of that yet.
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Old 07-05-2011, 04:33 PM   #67 (permalink)
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Old 07-05-2011, 05:06 PM   #68 (permalink)
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Is the protege5 faster and bigger?

I disslike american cars because I feel they are inferior to the japanese. Everyone says they are just as good now, but everyone has said that for the last 20 years, and I haven't seen much evidence of that yet.
nope and nope
the mp5 has a 2.0L 4 banger vs the MX6 with a 2.5L 6cyl.
but the RPMs are way lower in the mx6 @ hwy spds.
2700@73mph (MX6) vs 3400@70mph (mp5)

Im also going to have to disagree with you about the american cars vs japanese cars.
my 99 ranger XLT (ford blueprinted, mazda copied) lasted 6 yrs and 60k miles with 0 major problems, and at the end, before trading it, I was averaging 25mpg hwy with the 3.0L auto.
it ALL depends on how you take care of your cars.
if you take care of it and follow the manufacturers recommendations for service, most any car will last quite a long time.
granted, some of them simply have bad design flaws (dodge drivetrains, KIA trans) but for the most part, my statement is true
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Old 07-05-2011, 09:08 PM   #69 (permalink)
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I look at what we do here. How is that we can come here, and with a little brainstorming and "spirited" discussion, we have borne witness to a 100mpg Civic, a 28 mpg Ford Super Duty Diesel, an affordable electric controller, a $657.00 electric car, and countless other vehicles that outperform what the factories have done, and without their billions worth of resources. How is it that we can crack the code on making a car or truck run better than they can?

It's because they already did, a long time ago, and were told not to release the technology to the general public. I was reading recently in GM High Tech Performance about the designs we drive now are usually 5 years old or older.

Malfeasance baby.
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Old 07-05-2011, 10:48 PM   #70 (permalink)
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I look at what we do here. How is that we can come here, and with a little brainstorming and "spirited" discussion, we have borne witness to a 100mpg Civic, a 28 mpg Ford Super Duty Diesel, an affordable electric controller, a $657.00 electric car, and countless other vehicles that outperform what the factories have done, and without their billions worth of resources. How is it that we can crack the code on making a car or truck run better than they can?

It's because they already did, a long time ago, and were told not to release the technology to the general public. I was reading recently in GM High Tech Performance about the designs we drive now are usually 5 years old or older.

Malfeasance baby.
Its always easier and cheaper to build a one off when you don't have to worry about some idiot hurting themselves and then suing you for millions than building 100,000 and having to make sure all of the protections are there to prevent an idiot from getting hurt.

The design cycle on many models of cars is about 5 years. Between that and testing the new technology for safety and durability etc it doesn't supprise me that it takes major manufacturers that long to bring in new technology.

Keep in mind much of American culture is resistant to change, even good change.

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