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Old 08-24-2018, 01:39 AM   #41 (permalink)
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Im all for that, I’m not used to a 2004 car being worth that much, I think my Saturn books for like $1600-1800... I couldn’t hardly find a used Metro to trade down to, much less an Insight or HCH1...

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Old 08-24-2018, 01:51 AM   #42 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mpg_numbers_guy View Post
It's got more mid-range torque than a Toyota Sienna! My dad drove me down to college in our family minivan with a luggage carrier on top - about a 4 MPG penalty. Trying to go 75 MPH with that it constantly downshifted to 3rd gear @ 4500 RPMs because it didn't have the torque - while my Civic has never downshifted on any hill below 75 MPH. It did once on a steep hill going 78 (not me driving, I promise!!!). Van got around 22.5 until he got so mad he slowed down to 60-65 lol and finished off at 23.6. Speed really does kill!
I don't want to be the village dick, but I don't think that's a great comparison. My Ma has an '04 Mazda3 hatch with 2.3 and automatic. It downshifts or goes out of lockup if a dog in Newfoundland farts. My wife's Chrysler Town and Country resolutely resists downshifts. There's a little bit going on with torquebands, and how loaded each vehicle actually was, but it comes down to some engineer somewhere determining how the vehicle should "feel" and where the shift algorithm should choose a downshift.

I have never driven a D17 of any stripe, but I can say that my D16 vs my SVT Focus is weak sauce for torque, just to compare my two m/t four cylinders, and my butt dyno got a lot more shove out of my slushbox trans Echo than my Civic. The D-series wants to, needs to, begs to be revved, pushed, used, and prodded. It's endearing as an enthusiast, discouraging for running taller gearing.

All that aside, if you can make a G1 Insight work for you, DO IT! I really can't so I think folks who can, and have some interest, should.
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Old 08-24-2018, 02:38 AM   #43 (permalink)
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I still don’t think it’s a fair comparison... you’re comparing an economy oriented D16 with around 106lb/ft with a performance oriented 2.3 liter Duratec with around 160lb/ft? I’m spitballing on the SVT, but you get the point...

Some automatic transmissions are programmed differently...

For example I had (two cars ago) a 2007 Chevy Malibu and my wife has a 2006 Saturn Ion, and both cars had the 2.2 Ecotec and 4T45E trans, but programmed vastly different.

The Malibu was easy to coax upahifts in and I could reliably get a shift to OD and TQ lock at 40mph, by briefly backing off the throttle, and it would hold OD with a fair amount of throttle applied to keep accelerating... my wife’s Saturn is less easy to get to upshift and it doesn’t use OD until almost 50mph, and it’s easier to make it kick down...

Once again, same engine, transmission, and final drive ratio, but different programming...
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Old 08-24-2018, 07:43 AM   #44 (permalink)
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It's still very possible to EoC with an Insight and a bad 2nd gear down-synchro and no battery, but frankly the hybrid system makes EoC really slick.

This is my shift knob:




There are 3 buttons on it.
Left button: momentary button that tells the ECU I'm moving at 2mph.
Middle button: toggle button that tells the ECU I'm pressing the clutch
Right button: momentary button that tells the ECU I'm pressing the brake

To EoC: With the car in neutral, toggle the middle button to fool the car into thinking you have the clutch in. Then tap the left button. The car thinks you're holding the clutch and slowing to a stop, and so it quietly and smoothly shuts the engine off. The 12v battery still charges, because the DC-DC converter is taking energy from the large hybrid pack.

To start the engine: Simply untoggle the middle (clutch) button. The car sees you're not holding the clutch in anymore, and silently and smoothly starts the engine, roughly matching revs even if you're at higher speed. Then just put it in gear and go.

When slowing down, the right button turns on the brake lights and applies full regenerative braking, without having to touch the mechanical brake pedal.

Last edited by Ecky; 08-24-2018 at 08:02 AM..
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Old 08-24-2018, 07:48 AM   #45 (permalink)
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As for the hybrid battery, sitting alone shouldn't hurt it. There are batteries which, once grid charged, have come back to life in perfect working order after decades of sitting.

The cells will very slowly self-discharge when the car is unused. If the battery is "weak", that usually means not all of the cells are roughly equal anymore, and some will discharge faster than others. You end up with imbalanced cells. When you go to use the car after it's been sitting, you just need to attach a grid charger and slowly and gently top them all off together, to bring them back into balance.

I can assemble a grid charger for about $40 in parts and an hour of soldering. These normally sell for $3-500 on eBay.

What usually "kills" a battery is that one or more of the cells gradually end up with more and more internal resistance, so they get out of balance from the others more easily. Once they're out of balance, normal cycling of the battery takes these higher or lower than the other cells (normally 40-80% charge range), accelerating wear on them, until they out-gas or fail in some other way. One can in theory fix the pack by simply replacing the one bad cell, but this is a time consuming process and you'll pay out the nose for someone else to do it.

Many packs which are really, truly dead (and not just unbalanced) are dead because the owner was not aware of the above and did not maintain the battery "properly". Toyota's battery management does a better job of keeping cells in balance and thus Toyota hybrids see far fewer battery failures and require basically zero maintenance.

Even packs with a bad cell or two can be limped along for years with regular balance charging.

Last edited by Ecky; 08-24-2018 at 12:40 PM..
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Old 08-24-2018, 07:57 AM   #46 (permalink)
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That’s a neat setup, does the speedometer show 2mph while the button is in? Assuming it doesn’t mess with odometer reading?
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Old 08-24-2018, 08:01 AM   #47 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 19bonestock88 View Post
That’s a neat setup, does the speedometer show 2mph while the button is in? Assuming it doesn’t mess with odometer reading?
Neat thing about the Insight, the ECU and cluster have separate VSS lines. Our Natalya makes an interceptor you put in line to the ECU, then connect to a button. The cluster still reads the correct speed and miles.

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Old 08-24-2018, 08:06 AM   #48 (permalink)
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That’s pretty neat... almost like they meant for the car to be modded... they say Hondas are like legos lol
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Old 08-24-2018, 09:51 AM   #49 (permalink)
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Now you guys got ME dreaming... found two G1 Insights within a 4h drive... one was $2k and ran/drove fine but had a couple dings, and one was $1500 but with blown HG(good IMA battery though)... I think both had grid chargers...

*sigh*
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Old 08-24-2018, 01:11 PM   #50 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 19bonestock88 View Post
Im all for that, Iím not used to a 2004 car being worth that much, I think my Saturn books for like $1600-1800... I couldnít hardly find a used Metro to trade down to, much less an Insight or HCH1...
Hondas have a higher market here, and ones with their maintenance done generally fetch decent prices. Because of what I paid for it, I don't necessarily need to make over $4K on it, but $3500-$4000 should be doable.

----------

In response to the engine downshifting comparisons (too much talk to quote it all, so..):

I agree that it's honestly part of the tuning. My Civic goes to about 90% load before downshifting, while the Sienna goes to about 70%-ish load before downshifting. I've told my dad he needs to get it tuned.

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by jcp123 View Post
All that aside, if you can make a G1 Insight work for you, DO IT! I really can't so I think folks who can, and have some interest, should.
All about those MPGs!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ecky View Post
It's still very possible to EoC with an Insight and a bad 2nd gear down-synchro and no battery, but frankly the hybrid system makes EoC really slick.

This is my shift knob:

...


There are 3 buttons on it.
Left button: momentary button that tells the ECU I'm moving at 2mph.
Middle button: toggle button that tells the ECU I'm pressing the clutch
Right button: momentary button that tells the ECU I'm pressing the brake

To EoC: With the car in neutral, toggle the middle button to fool the car into thinking you have the clutch in. Then tap the left button. The car thinks you're holding the clutch and slowing to a stop, and so it quietly and smoothly shuts the engine off. The 12v battery still charges, because the DC-DC converter is taking energy from the large hybrid pack.

To start the engine: Simply untoggle the middle (clutch) button. The car sees you're not holding the clutch in anymore, and silently and smoothly starts the engine, roughly matching revs even if you're at higher speed. Then just put it in gear and go.

When slowing down, the right button turns on the brake lights and applies full regenerative braking, without having to touch the mechanical brake pedal.
DAANNNGGGG!!! >>>inset love buggy eyes emoji<<< Me want!! I swear I'll get myself a Gen 1 Insight even if I have to friggin steal it! How would I do something like that though with that crazy amazing shift knob and buttons and all???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ecky View Post
As for the hybrid battery, sitting alone shouldn't hurt it. There are batteries which, once grid charged, have come back to life in perfect working order after decades of sitting.

The cells will very slowly self-discharge when the car is unused. If the battery is "weak", that usually means not all of the cells are roughly equal anymore, and some will discharge faster than others. You end up with imbalanced cells. When you go to use the car after it's been sitting, you just need to attach a grid charger and slowly and gently top them all off together, to bring them back into balance.

...

What usually "kills" a battery is that one or more of the cells gradually end up with more and more internal resistance, so they get out of balance from the others more easily. Once they're out of balance, normal cycling of the battery takes these higher or lower than the other cells (normally 40-80% charge range), accelerating wear on them, until they out-gas or fail in some other way. One can in theory fix the pack by simply replacing the one bad cell, but this is a time consuming process and you'll pay out the nose for someone else to do it.

Many packs which are really, truly dead (and not just unbalanced) are dead because the owner was not aware of the above and did not maintain the battery "properly". Toyota's battery management does a better job of keeping cells in balance and thus Toyota hybrids see far fewer battery failures and require basically zero maintenance.

Even packs with a bad cell or two can be limped along for years with regular balance charging.
But what about people who leave their Prius parked and people keep saying that's bad for the battery? Is that just a Toyota thing then?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ecky View Post
I can assemble a grid charger for about $40 in parts and an hour of soldering. These normally sell for $3-500 on eBay.
Would something like this work for $200?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 19bonestock88 View Post
Now you guys got ME dreaming... found two G1 Insights within a 4h drive... one was $2k and ran/drove fine but had a couple dings, and one was $1500 but with blown HG(good IMA battery though)... I think both had grid chargers...

*sigh*
Go get it! but save me one...I'd drive 200 miles to get one.

Heck, if I was still back home I'd drive to New York and pick up the one Ecky shared the link too a while back. There's also one just two hours away from home just like it with 135K miles.

Now to hurry through the school year so I can join the 100 MPG club with an Insight.

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