Electric cars, unclean at any speed

[euromodder]

Originally Posted by oil pan 4

The smart grid and smart meters are only a bandaid for the real problem, not keeping up with demand. Demand that comes from growth.

The smart grid is a way to balance production and demand - which is getting increasingly important due to the high variability in production from PV and wind.

[oil pan 4]

Originally Posted by NachtRitter

If it's a car battery (e.g. from an EV), then either the dealership / auto shop that is replacing the battery will take care of it, or if you buy your own replacement then the vendor you buy from will recycle the old ones.

None of the above.
I built it out of AMP20 rejects.
I already made sure to ask, the guy that sold me the AMP20 rejects has no intrest in used up AMP20 cells and didn't know any one that does.

I am sure as heck not mailing them to canada, that would cost at least $30.
Then maybe another $20 or $40 for hazmat.

Like the lead acid batteries I recover I should be able to get paid for turning them in. I'm not running a charity.

Lead acid batteries cost some where around $70-$100 per KWH and are worth about 15 cents a pound. Lithiums cost $500 to $1000 per KwH, I find it hard to believe they have little scrap value.

[oil pan 4]

Originally Posted by NachtRitter

To the best of my knowledge, Smart Grid (or Meters) has nothing (specifically) to do with reducing power transmission losses.

My bad I ment to call them smart switches, at least that is what they are calling them around here.

The smart switch only turns off your centeral A/C for 20 minutes at a time and you have to ask the power company to install one for you.

The smart meter they claim cant turn off your power, but I have been told other wise by farmers and ranchers who pump water and have their wells on smart meters.

[oil pan 4]

Originally Posted by euromodder

The smart grid is a way to balance production and demand - which is getting increasingly important due to the high variability in production from PV and wind.

The only way to balance production and demand is by adding more production or mandating less demand.
Using a more efficient extention cord doesn't fix this problem.

[Ryland]

Originally Posted by oil pan 4

My bad I ment to call them smart switches, at least that is what they are calling them around here.

The smart switch only turns off your centeral A/C for 20 minutes at a time and you have to ask the power company to install one for you.

The smart meter they claim cant turn off your power, but I have been told other wise by farmers and ranchers who pump water and have their wells on smart meters.

You can get the smart switch or saver switch for wells too, you can also buy your own electric meter and take it apart to look for a switch, there is no switch, that is why you have to pull the meter to switch the power off if you want the power off before the breaker box.

You can get the smart/saver switch for water heaters, wells, air conditioners, electric heat, any large electric load, they don't offer them in my area yet for EV's but I was told by my power company that they would not stop me from charging my EV off that switched line.

[NachtRitter]

Originally Posted by oil pan 4

None of the above.
I built it out of AMP20 rejects.
I already made sure to ask, the guy that sold me the AMP20 rejects has no intrest in used up AMP20 cells and didn't know any one that does.

I am sure as heck not mailing them to canada, that would cost at least $30.
Then maybe another $20 or $40 for hazmat.

Like the lead acid batteries I recover I should be able to get paid for turning them in. I'm not running a charity.

Lead acid batteries cost some where around $70-$100 per KWH and are worth about 15 cents a pound. Lithiums cost $500 to $1000 per KwH, I find it hard to believe they have little scrap value.

Ya, I'm not sure why the link defaulted to Ottawa, ON, but I'm guessing it used the ecomodder server IP address to generate a link with places near it... supposedly, if you clink on the link, it will try to guess where you are and then list nearby locations for recycling. I also listed some common places you can bring the lithiums for recycling:

Typical places: Staples, RadioShack, Lowes, Best Buy, Home Depot.

No cost for mailing or hazmat fees if you've got a place like that nearby; just drop 'em off if you're going there anyway.

Since you asked

Speaking of recycling, when my lithium batteries give up the ghost where do I recycle them?

that's what I answered, not whether you can recover a few ¢¢ from them.

Just like anything that is classified as hazardous waste (household chemicals, paints, any kind of batteries, etc), it is your responsibility to dispose of the product properly whether you get some money back from it or not.

[NachtRitter]

Originally Posted by oil pan 4

The only way to balance production and demand is by adding more production or mandating less demand.
Using a more efficient extention cord doesn't fix this problem.

Again, the smart grid has nothing to do with a "more efficient extension cord". It has to do with having a way to measure, in fine-grained detail (at least compared to pre-Smart Grid), the demand of the power grid so that the data is available to balance that grid in the most efficient way possible. Some of that includes the ability to control the consumption of power (especially with big customers as the article I linked above discussed) so that peak demands can be handled either without adding more production or by reducing the amount of production that must be added.

As Ryland and I have pointed out, residential customers can also participate (opt-in); in exchange they will receive a credit on their utility bill (as you say, they wouldn't do it for charity).

In order to manage the resources the power companies have in the best way possible, they must first be able to measure how it is being used and next they have to have a way to control it in the same fine-grained detail.

The whole Smart Meter debacle was blown far out of proportion, and the fault lies in part with the power companies themselves. The myths, misinformation, and general FUD about Smart Meters is just stunning. Your comment about being able to turn off the power... that has nothing specifically to do with Smart Meters! Whether you have one or not, the power company has the ability to turn off the power to your property.

[Occasionally6]

Originally Posted by NachtRitter

Another interesting article: Swiss Warehouse Helps Buffer the Grid - IEEE Spectrum. The gist being that a warehouse-sized freezer which typically consumes ~500,000kWH/month can be used to balance the demands of a power grid which includes wind and solar power by automatically managing the warehouse refrigerators, using it kind of like a big battery. The warehouse saves money by consuming less electricity (article didn't mention how long it would take to recover the cost of the automation implementation though) and the power company has a way to handle peak demands (or reduced generation due to the renewables) without constructing another power plant.

All the misguided hullabaloo about Smart Meters notwithstanding, I think the Smart Grid is the direction we *must* go in order to more intelligently manage the power grid so that we can take maximum advantage of power generation, which we know will include more and more renewables. Great opportunities for young folks entering college, BTW...

These are exactly the kinds of things that are going to allow the replacement of fossil fuels. The problem with renewables like wind and PV is not that they cannot generate the power (capture the energy), it's that they can't always do so when we want to use it. Energy storage is the key.

Energy doesn't have to be stored so that it can be extracted as electricity. It can be stored in other ways such as in a thermal mass ^; freeze something when the power is available and melt it when it's not.

Another example I can think of is to store a larger volume or higher pressure of compressed air (for industrial use) when power is available, rather than periodically top up a smaller tank.

The downside is the extra cost of the larger storage and increased size of the equipment required to meet the higher peak work load.

Originally Posted by IamIan

I disagree.

This very well could be true in some places ... but it will not be true in others ... because the cost per "equivalent energy" will vary ... for both sides ... the various types of fossil fuels and for the various types of RE... they aren't all fixed costs and outputs , etc..

It may be so that renewables are already less expensive than fossil fuels in terms of direct cost. My point is that it doesn't matter if they are or not. Through global warming and the associated climate change, using fossil fuels will be, if not already, destroying wealth faster than they can be used to create it.

At some point that will be acknowledged and fossil fuel use will stop. If we don't stop, and try to burn all the fossil fuels, we will be fighting an increasingly losing battle. We're not stupid, so we won't allow that to occur. Fossil fuels are dead energy sources walking.

Worse, the indirect costs associated with fossil fuels are ongoing. Once, say, agricultural land is no longer productive, or water desalination or a flood barrier is required due to climate change, it's forever lost or always required (unless people move and cities are abandoned). They become legacy costs that have to paid indefinitely, long after the economic benefit of burning the fuels has been received.

Because it has been left so late to act it's going to be hard to do, because it now has to be done fast. It will be done in no more than 30 or 40 years because it has to be. Yes, it will hurt to do it.

[Xist]

Before my best friend moved out-of-state, he needed to deal with his brother turning off the AC when they actually needed it.

Somehow this was difficult for my best friend, here in Arizona.

[jamesqf]

Originally Posted by oil pan 4

The smart meter they claim cant turn off your power, but I have been told other wise by farmers and ranchers who pump water and have their wells on smart meters.

That's not smart meters, that's load shedding. Utilities have been doing it since at least the '80s. Users with non-critical loads like irrigation pumps get lower rates in exchange for allowing the utility to cut off the power if system demand exceeds supply.