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Old 08-12-2014, 02:10 AM   #21 (permalink)
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Beyond the piggyback and header, any other power adder (aside from a turbocharger or supercharger) is incredibly marginal, so I'd stop there.

(well, who am I kidding, I would never stop... )

Beyond that, some good aero will help on a car the size and shape of a Vitara... as well as better lubricants. Small Suzuki 4x4s are typically crap on gas given the engine size, because the drivetrains are so heavy duty.

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Old 08-12-2014, 02:54 AM   #22 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by niky View Post
Beyond the piggyback and header, any other power adder (aside from a turbocharger or supercharger) is incredibly marginal, so I'd stop there.

(well, who am I kidding, I would never stop... )

Beyond that, some good aero will help on a car the size and shape of a Vitara... as well as better lubricants. Small Suzuki 4x4s are typically crap on gas given the engine size, because the drivetrains are so heavy duty.
Aero mods would probably do be the most benefit, I would love to see what is available for an SUV. Premium lubricants will also go a long way, beyond that there isn't a whole lot left to do. Will certainly be looking for ways to push it further.
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Old 08-12-2014, 05:02 AM   #23 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by niky View Post
As for buying a piggyback for fuel economy, you have to do a lot of research. Many cars will "relearn" around a piggyback, adapting to the change in fueling parameters by altering the fuel maps over time. Which means you need an O2 sensor intercept, which will cost extra.

And the amount of money spent on a piggyback will often not be recovered through fuel savings. A piggyback that works properly costs a bit of money, as do the dyno-tuning or street-tuning required to get best performance (alternatively, you could tune it yourself, but that means spending more money on a wideband O2 and software).
An older car wouldn't really adapt to the piggyback, with narrowband O2 sensors, no EGT sensors, and open/closed loop based off rpm the ECU is easily fooled.

For fuel economy increasing I don't think the tuning would be that difficult especially if you can use a switchable map (not that I'm saying this is easy to get in most cases) and use a wideband input. You can erase some of the emissions safety margin built into the top of the powerband by leaning it out to a more reasonable 0.85 lambda instead of the 0.75-0.8 on a lot of stock cars, and then lean out the cells in your cruising range to 1.2 lambda, and tweak the spark advance just a bit (since you're changing the low load cells there's already a lot of advance).

If you drive a lot of highway miles like many people in the US, the 5-10% fuel you'd save doing that could pay off the piggyback in under 2 years. A Greddy EMU is what, $800-900 with a harness? Unichips are less but I don't know if they're as capable. I think the EMU can run the injectors independently using a wideband input, and you can use a narrowband emulator to get the stock ECU to cooperate, since the stock ECU would then have no idea what the injectors are doing at all. A gas guzzler SUV/truck/luxury land yacht burns through several k in fuel in a year easily.

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Old 08-12-2014, 09:46 AM   #24 (permalink)
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Looking for a 4x4 for my 15 yo for school and for me for weekends and a Vitara is on my watch for list, good to see it can get decent numbers.

Don't need skinny tires for better mpg, but a set of Nokian WRG2 or 3 might help when replacement time comes and do good in snow/ice.
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Old 08-12-2014, 10:45 AM   #25 (permalink)
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The best thing for better mileage is to leave the stock engine stock. Don't mess with it aside from preventative maintenance. If there are any mileage gains by upgrading an engine, it will probably take a couple hundred thousand miles to pay back.

Tuners are usually the same way. You will pay $$$ and might have some gains, but is it worth it financially? It could take 1,000,000 miles to pay off a tuner. Plus, before and after testing is needed to prove the tune actually works, which means ABA testing in controlled conditions and swapping the tune back and forth. I am not saying don't do it, but tuning a modern fuel injected car is not worth it financially. It may be worth it as a hobby or for personal reasons.

As stated several times, work on aero mods and rolling resistance. Fuel consumption is directly related to how much work the engine is doing. More work = more energy = more gas consumed.
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Old 08-12-2014, 11:04 AM   #26 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by serialk11r View Post
An older car wouldn't really adapt to the piggyback, with narrowband O2 sensors, no EGT sensors, and open/closed loop based off rpm the ECU is easily fooled.

For fuel economy increasing I don't think the tuning would be that difficult especially if you can use a switchable map (not that I'm saying this is easy to get in most cases) and use a wideband input. You can erase some of the emissions safety margin built into the top of the powerband by leaning it out to a more reasonable 0.85 lambda instead of the 0.75-0.8 on a lot of stock cars, and then lean out the cells in your cruising range to 1.2 lambda, and tweak the spark advance just a bit (since you're changing the low load cells there's already a lot of advance).

If you drive a lot of highway miles like many people in the US, the 5-10% fuel you'd save doing that could pay off the piggyback in under 2 years. A Greddy EMU is what, $800-900 with a harness? Unichips are less but I don't know if they're as capable. I think the EMU can run the injectors independently using a wideband input, and you can use a narrowband emulator to get the stock ECU to cooperate, since the stock ECU would then have no idea what the injectors are doing at all. A gas guzzler SUV/truck/luxury land yacht burns through several k in fuel in a year easily.
At 30,000 miles, an increase of 10% from 15 to 16.5 mpg will save $636 at $3.50 a gallon. We are also assuming that a good tune can get 10% more economy. I'd bet that figure would probably be more realistic at less than 5%, if there is any gain at all.

But, remember, not everyone can and should tune their own car. A bad tune can destroy an engine quickly. Tuning and dyno time cost money, so you can probably add another $500-$1000 to the $800-$900 tuning hardware. Now we are up to a $1,300-$1,900+ payback of almost 100,000 miles using the above numbers.

The manufacturers do a very good job of tuning and keeping engines safe. Leaning them out and changing the timing gives them less of a safety margin if there are weather changes, bad gas (lower octane), etc.
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Old 08-12-2014, 12:41 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by maplesyrupghost View Post
Suzuki Vitara is a truck. It's an SUV, full 4x4 capabilities, I call it a truck.
Sorry, but no. It's an SUV, not a truck, no matter what you want to call it. You can call your cat a dog all you want, but it's never going to bark :-)

Quote:
True, I don't want it to sound like crap. That's why I was describing a scenario where I could hypothetically have two muffers on a switch, or an electric cutoff to go to zero muffler, so I could have a 100% quiet vehicle or a loud one...
Loud one = CRAP! In other words, you've probably got a halfway decently quiet vehicle now, and plan to spend money making it louder?
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Old 08-12-2014, 04:29 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by jamesqf View Post
Sorry, but no. It's an SUV, not a truck, no matter what you want to call it. You can call your cat a dog all you want, but it's never going to bark :-)

Loud one = CRAP! In other words, you've probably got a halfway decently quiet vehicle now, and plan to spend money making it louder?
I agree, it's an SUV but it has the spirit of a truck. Everything about it is a truck except the shape. I wish this forum had another option besides "car" and "truck" for the defitions. Seems there aren't even many SUVs on here, period. They aught to be. They need help the most. I might casually call my Vitara a truck but that's because it is a cat that barks like a dog!

Re: the loudness.. I don't want it to sound like a Civic with a fart cannon on it. Not only is that just painful on the ears for passerbys, but also at high rev on the highway it would be louder than my stereo, depending on how extreme it is. But there are trucks out there that sound throaty and if you have just a slightest bit of exhaust noise it is nice. But being a 4-cylinder, I have to be careful, basically any exhaust sounds like garbage. So that's why I am leaning towards leaving the stock exhaust in place but replacing the manifold with the header, that MAY change the sound. Right now it's dead silent, like the quietest vehicle I've ever owned. Too quiet. I will post before/after videos of the header for you to judge, once I can find a dealer who will ship me the header.. eBay sellers are being unresponsive so far. There are videos of people who have taken this engine and put a magnaflow on it, but no one posting a video of the header AND magnaflow, so I am in slightly uncharted waters. Spending money to make it louder... only if in theory it is only slightly louder and improves performance, ever so slightly. Either that or I am going to buy a brand new exhaust that is entirely stock, but it's all rusty down there, I have to replace it eventually.

Quote:
Originally Posted by serialk11r View Post
An older car wouldn't really adapt to the piggyback, with narrowband O2 sensors, no EGT sensors, and open/closed loop based off rpm the ECU is easily fooled.

For fuel economy increasing I don't think the tuning would be that difficult especially if you can use a switchable map (not that I'm saying this is easy to get in most cases) and use a wideband input. You can erase some of the emissions safety margin built into the top of the powerband by leaning it out to a more reasonable 0.85 lambda instead of the 0.75-0.8 on a lot of stock cars, and then lean out the cells in your cruising range to 1.2 lambda, and tweak the spark advance just a bit (since you're changing the low load cells there's already a lot of advance).

If you drive a lot of highway miles like many people in the US, the 5-10% fuel you'd save doing that could pay off the piggyback in under 2 years. A Greddy EMU is what, $800-900 with a harness? Unichips are less but I don't know if they're as capable. I think the EMU can run the injectors independently using a wideband input, and you can use a narrowband emulator to get the stock ECU to cooperate, since the stock ECU would then have no idea what the injectors are doing at all. A gas guzzler SUV/truck/luxury land yacht burns through several k in fuel in a year easily.
^^ this is the post I wanted to hear! I sort of want to get the Greddy.. whatever is best within reason. I need to find someone who can recommend EXACTLY what I should buy, right now leaning towards the RPM SplitSec Piggyback but those Greddy's aren't very expensive either. Not only would it pay for itself, but I would rather spend the extra money now to drive a more economical vehicle. Instead of buying a $15,000 land rover (which I almost did) I got the Suzuki with the intension of making it the most economical SUV possible. Maxing out the performance in the engine area is not even very expensive to do what I want, it's all under budget if I go "all out" with these mods. Plus it's better for the environment! Not always about money!

Quote:
Originally Posted by roosterk0031 View Post
Looking for a 4x4 for my 15 yo for school and for me for weekends and a Vitara is on my watch for list, good to see it can get decent numbers.

Don't need skinny tires for better mpg, but a set of Nokian WRG2 or 3 might help when replacement time comes and do good in snow/ice.
Yeah your 15 yo will forever thank you if they get to drive to school in a Vitara. Living in Iowa you probably see some cold and snow in the winter, I would be hesitant to let a NEW driver go out there with a 2 wheel drive car on icy roads. Having it in 4x4 mode is amazing, I've owned 9 cars before this Vitara and never a 4x4, driving in the winter is now fun. I even pulled a police car out of the ditch. That was when I had a lot of rusty components under the hood that was holding me back. I actually can't wait until it snows so I can rip through drifts again!

Good call on those Nokian tires. Guy at work bought them and swears by them. New tires are in the budget, I was planning on putting my decent-tread-life Michelins on some nice aluminum (but affordable) 16" rims and get a nice pair of VERY grippy winter tires for my steel rims.. but never thought about installing Nokians for year-round, I might just do that.

Another advantage in the Vitara you will find is that there are a LOT of them out there. Not "common" but you can find parts EVERYWHERE around the world. It wasn't just popular in North America, these things are in Japan, South America, Europe, and extremely popular in Australia. Not only can you modify them a bit, you can find cheap replacement parts, good aftermarket parts and solid advice out there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sarguy01 View Post
The best thing for better mileage is to leave the stock engine stock. Don't mess with it aside from preventative maintenance. If there are any mileage gains by upgrading an engine, it will probably take a couple hundred thousand miles to pay back.

Tuners are usually the same way. You will pay $$$ and might have some gains, but is it worth it financially? It could take 1,000,000 miles to pay off a tuner. Plus, before and after testing is needed to prove the tune actually works, which means ABA testing in controlled conditions and swapping the tune back and forth. I am not saying don't do it, but tuning a modern fuel injected car is not worth it financially. It may be worth it as a hobby or for personal reasons.
I plan on leaving it as stock as possible, but still want it to perform better than stock. I know they are tuned very carefully and I won't see much gain, but I want to explore all options. Even if there isn't a gain in performance or economy, I like to buy nice things. Like, the timing chain... I don't know how old it is, but I hear it's wise to change. I plan on getting it changed next year. While the engine is all ripped apart, what else is there to swap? eBay kits come with water pump, oil pump, and so on. But each component is probably made by an aftermarket company, and there are probably better options out there that are better than OEM quality. If there was a timing chain that was physically the same dimensions but was $50 more because the metal was forged by an actual samurai and hand made, I would explore that option. Each moving part under the hood probably has 146,000 km on it and I'd like to replace each one with the highest quality replacement. There aren't many options from my explorations, so most likely just going to use OEM parts. So far I have only replaced parts that literally died on me, I haven't changed anything unnecessarily yet.

But there are unnecessary upgrades coming, slight ones at least. I haven't even looked at the spark plugs in there, they might be old or they might be new, but when I unscrew those coil bolts I want to know I have premium ones to put in anyway, they are like $50 for a good set and I am going to get those on friday. The gear oil in the diffs, might be okay but I am going to put in synthetic immediately, just to see the difference.

Another thing I spent like 10 hours googling for information was the gear ratios all over. If I could change the ratio in the diff to be lower, it would reduce my highway RPMs and thus save fuel. It seems to be geared a bit more towards towing than highway comfort. Still silky smooth, but I sure wish I could reduce it by 15%. Having front and rear diffs means I need to probably find a perfect mate, plus there are transfer case gears which could be theoretically changed, and the final drive in the transmission could be swapped, but of all my research I came to the conclusion that I can't just order something to put in. Not going to focus on it unless there is a clear choice.
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Old 08-12-2014, 05:02 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Is it for a turbodiesel?
If not, then no.

Exhaust mods if done for economy offer some of the smallest gains.
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Old 08-12-2014, 05:38 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Quote:
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Is it for a turbodiesel?
If not, then no.

Exhaust mods if done for economy offer some of the smallest gains.
It's not the TD, just regular gas.

I know it could be a small gain, but I was thinking I could have that option with the flick of a switch, but losing pressure in the Y-pipe is enough of a loss to scare me from trying it.

Not a diesel but I am going to locate the hood from a diesel. Look at that beautiful scoop:



I found the one I want, perfect condition and color, but $600 shipping charge.. Probably not going to be ordering that today..

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