Go Back   EcoModder Forum > EcoModding > General Efficiency Discussion
Register Now
 Register Now
 

Reply  Post New Thread
 
Submit Tools LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 08-11-2014, 06:26 PM   #11 (permalink)
Got MPG?
 
maplesyrupghost's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Winnipeg
Posts: 18

4x4Vitality - '03 Suzuki Vitara Base
90 day: 27.25 mpg (US)

93SupraTT - '93 Toyota Supra GZ
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Lee View Post
You are bound and determined to open that thing up, huh. Who do you intend to bless with all the cacophony- people in town don't want to hear it, and people in the country don't either.

If you want to drive around and get good fuel economy, it probably isn't going to happen in a truck. I don't understand why that concept is so difficult for so many.
I never wanted to make it loud, just cheaper to drive. Good fuel economy in a truck is an oxymoron but I went for the 4-banger route. The problem is that at 100 kph it revs at just over 3000 RPM, I would probably be able to hear the exhaust on the highway, and it'll probably sound like ass. Not in my truck... but if for $200 I could install an exhaust flip to make it loud, I would do it. But if losing the muffler causes a loss in backpressure causing lower MPG it has not achieved anything.. when I look at fuelly and even on this forum for the MPG numbers on SUV's I'm already doing extremely well. Disturbingly well. I want to get 35 MPG though. That's the goal.

  Reply With Quote
Alt Today
Popular topics

Other popular topics in this forum...

   
Old 08-11-2014, 06:37 PM   #12 (permalink)
(:
 
Frank Lee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: up north
Posts: 12,735

Blue - '93 Ford Tempo
Last 3: 27.29 mpg (US)

F150 - '94 Ford F150 XLT 4x4
90 day: 18.5 mpg (US)

Sport Coupe - '92 Ford Tempo GL
Last 3: 69.62 mpg (US)

ShWing! - '82 honda gold wing Interstate
90 day: 33.65 mpg (US)

Moon Unit - '98 Mercury Sable LX Wagon
90 day: 21.24 mpg (US)
Thanks: 1,571
Thanked 3,508 Times in 2,195 Posts
Can't speak for Winterpeg but cut-outs are illegal here.
__________________


  Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2014, 06:40 PM   #13 (permalink)
Got MPG?
 
maplesyrupghost's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Winnipeg
Posts: 18

4x4Vitality - '03 Suzuki Vitara Base
90 day: 27.25 mpg (US)

93SupraTT - '93 Toyota Supra GZ
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Lee View Post
Can't speak for Winterpeg but cut-outs are illegal here.
Yeah, that's a concern too. That's why I want to retain the stock exhaust for driving around town... or at least, a stock-ish exhaust. About 50% of my highway drive is outside of the city. Mine's all rusty and it would be nice if they made an exhaust that was non restrictive and still sounded good.. Has anyone put two magnaflow mufflers in series?
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2014, 07:37 PM   #14 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Philippines
Posts: 2,173
Thanks: 1,739
Thanked 587 Times in 401 Posts
While you can improve exahust efficiency, most off-the-shelf systems are tuned for mid-range to high-rpm use. It's not the lack of backpressure that's the issue... it's flow stagnation that is. A bigger exhaust is horrible at cleaning out the cylinders at low rpm. It's like trying to suck soda through a giant straw (say, for drinking smoothies?) slowly. Not easy.

The soda straw stock system usually gives you best flow at lower rpm... which is what you want for best efficiency at a cruise.

I could see an exhaust designed for efficiency, if you have the header designed for proper scavenging at low rpm, as Mazda does with their SkyActiv and its long-tube header systems.

But, as with Mazda, you would have to retune the engine to take advantage of this by leaning out (by leaning out the charge further). On an otherwise stock system, having the charge lean out due to better exhaust efficiency (and remember, you're still injecting the same amount of fuel... you're just getting more air with it) will cause feedback from the O2 sensors to encourage the stock ECU to inject more gasoline to fix what it sees as an unhealthy lean condition.

Like the guys say... focus on other stuff first if efficiency is the goal. If you want to improve fuel efficiency engine side, breathing mods can only improve economy by accident (read any debate on K&N, ever). The only sure way to improve economy is by retuning your motor with a chip or a reflash. And even then, the cost will most often outweigh any economy benefits.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2014, 08:58 PM   #15 (permalink)
Got MPG?
 
maplesyrupghost's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Winnipeg
Posts: 18

4x4Vitality - '03 Suzuki Vitara Base
90 day: 27.25 mpg (US)

93SupraTT - '93 Toyota Supra GZ
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by niky View Post
While you can improve exahust efficiency, most off-the-shelf systems are tuned for mid-range to high-rpm use. It's not the lack of backpressure that's the issue... it's flow stagnation that is. A bigger exhaust is horrible at cleaning out the cylinders at low rpm. It's like trying to suck soda through a giant straw (say, for drinking smoothies?) slowly. Not easy.

The soda straw stock system usually gives you best flow at lower rpm... which is what you want for best efficiency at a cruise.

I could see an exhaust designed for efficiency, if you have the header designed for proper scavenging at low rpm, as Mazda does with their SkyActiv and its long-tube header systems.

But, as with Mazda, you would have to retune the engine to take advantage of this by leaning out (by leaning out the charge further). On an otherwise stock system, having the charge lean out due to better exhaust efficiency (and remember, you're still injecting the same amount of fuel... you're just getting more air with it) will cause feedback from the O2 sensors to encourage the stock ECU to inject more gasoline to fix what it sees as an unhealthy lean condition.

Like the guys say... focus on other stuff first if efficiency is the goal. If you want to improve fuel efficiency engine side, breathing mods can only improve economy by accident (read any debate on K&N, ever). The only sure way to improve economy is by retuning your motor with a chip or a reflash. And even then, the cost will most often outweigh any economy benefits.
Very interesting engine they have in the Mazda, I've never seen a more "straight" horsepower graph. They pretty much nailed it.

So you're saying in theory, headers = better but it's the ECU that is working against me. What if this is thrown into the equasion:

PSC1 (PDF) "RPM Piggyback".

Because there are guys on the SX4 forums who say they have seen an increase in MPG using the Piggyback. It looks to intercept the MAF sensor to dial in your air/fuel ratio to your liking. I've just discovered it, I haven't looked into it too much but the SX4 has a J20A and so does my Vitara so it's the exact same engine, if it helped I would buy one.

I think a combination of air fuel management and the header could increase better than the header alone, if that saw an increase. Or do we need a different device perhaps? Probably getting off topic at this point, but when you mention reflashing the ECU and proper tuning, is this outlandishly expensive if it were possible?
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2014, 09:22 PM   #16 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Earth
Posts: 5,209
Thanks: 225
Thanked 808 Times in 592 Posts
Humm... Either I'm confused, or you are. First you say you don't want it to sound like crap, then you describe everything you plan to do to make it sound like crap. Then you tell us you're working on a truck, but later say it's a Suzuki Vitara. Maybe you need to go back to square 1 and get organized :-)
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2014, 09:34 PM   #17 (permalink)
Got MPG?
 
maplesyrupghost's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Winnipeg
Posts: 18

4x4Vitality - '03 Suzuki Vitara Base
90 day: 27.25 mpg (US)

93SupraTT - '93 Toyota Supra GZ
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by jamesqf View Post
Humm... Either I'm confused, or you are. First you say you don't want it to sound like crap, then you describe everything you plan to do to make it sound like crap. Then you tell us you're working on a truck, but later say it's a Suzuki Vitara. Maybe you need to go back to square 1 and get organized :-)
Suzuki Vitara is a truck. It's an SUV, full 4x4 capabilities, I call it a truck.

True, I don't want it to sound like crap. That's why I was describing a scenario where I could hypothetically have two muffers on a switch, or an electric cutoff to go to zero muffler, so I could have a 100% quiet vehicle or a loud one, but you say it will not help MPG if I install something like that so that ship has sailed.

I don't want it to sound like crap but right now it's dead silent. All I can hear is engine. I want some sort of muffler system that is halfway to a performance exhaust, but since a company in Australia makes a long tube header that replaces the 1st cat, I think this will change the sound of the vehicle enough to leave the stock exhaust in there from the 2nd cat and back. To clarify, deleting the 1st cat.

It looks similar to this:



^ that's 1 bank of the V6 model's manifold. The inline 4 looks somewhat like that, but 4 cylinders.

Here's what the header exactly is:



I know I described scenarios that make it sound like crap but only if they would increase or maximize efficiency. For example, two magnaflows inline to each other, they are a straight tube design and having two should sound quieter than one... The header should change the sound of it enough though. Now if the ECU A/F ratio is thrown off and there is a way to fix it...
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2014, 09:37 PM   #18 (permalink)
Got MPG?
 
maplesyrupghost's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Winnipeg
Posts: 18

4x4Vitality - '03 Suzuki Vitara Base
90 day: 27.25 mpg (US)

93SupraTT - '93 Toyota Supra GZ
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
You're right about the cutout thing though. I can't have two systems and switch for more efficiency, it's either tuned for one way or the other.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2014, 12:06 AM   #19 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Philippines
Posts: 2,173
Thanks: 1,739
Thanked 587 Times in 401 Posts
A cut-out requires you to have a y-pipe leading to the cut-out... which will definitely affect the laminar flow within the exhaust.

-

As for buying a piggyback for fuel economy, you have to do a lot of research. Many cars will "relearn" around a piggyback, adapting to the change in fueling parameters by altering the fuel maps over time. Which means you need an O2 sensor intercept, which will cost extra.

And the amount of money spent on a piggyback will often not be recovered through fuel savings. A piggyback that works properly costs a bit of money, as do the dyno-tuning or street-tuning required to get best performance (alternatively, you could tune it yourself, but that means spending more money on a wideband O2 and software).

Aero modifications will net you similar gains, for less capital outlay. Possibly even more if you go crazy.

And... driving habit modifications (which includes your choice of tires and daily tire pressures) have the potential to net you even more gains than that. If I recall right, some authorities claim gains of 30% or more are possible simply from driving habits.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2014, 01:12 AM   #20 (permalink)
Got MPG?
 
maplesyrupghost's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Winnipeg
Posts: 18

4x4Vitality - '03 Suzuki Vitara Base
90 day: 27.25 mpg (US)

93SupraTT - '93 Toyota Supra GZ
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by niky View Post
As for buying a piggyback for fuel economy, you have to do a lot of research. Many cars will "relearn" around a piggyback, adapting to the change in fueling parameters by altering the fuel maps over time. Which means you need an O2 sensor intercept, which will cost extra.

And the amount of money spent on a piggyback will often not be recovered through fuel savings. A piggyback that works properly costs a bit of money, as do the dyno-tuning or street-tuning required to get best performance (alternatively, you could tune it yourself, but that means spending more money on a wideband O2 and software).

Aero modifications will net you similar gains, for less capital outlay. Possibly even more if you go crazy.

And... driving habit modifications (which includes your choice of tires and daily tire pressures) have the potential to net you even more gains than that. If I recall right, some authorities claim gains of 30% or more are possible simply from driving habits.
Yup, doing a LOT of research on the subject, luckily there's a bit of data out there to work off of, pretty much all the answers are out there if you look hard enough.

If the piggyback costs $300 and will never recover that in savings that's fine with me. I really plan on this vehicle being "the one" that I carry for many years, I hope to own it a decade from now. I'd rather spend a lot on it now, but not willing to overspend needlessly. If the electronics for the piggyback end up costing $600-700 and they will perfect the gains of the header, it's worth it. But if tuning ends up costing $2000, I might as well have spent that in other areas.

Basically, I also have a 1993 Honda Accord. Bought it with 278k on it, drove it for a year or so getting 23-24 mpg in the city, loved the thing. Then I borrowed it to someone, uninsured, and there was a freak flood on that person street and the whole car was underwater for a brief period of time. Past the hood, halfway up the back of the seats. Basically it was a miracle to get it running again. Then it was basically just a beater, could barely even rev the engine to get the car to drive, getting 16-18mpg but I used it for 5-6 years like that, never really thought much about fixing it. Brainwave, the ECU is dead! I bought a new ECU and suddenly, the engine worked decently again. Got like 23-24 MPG again. Got new exhaust in 2012... Still 22 mpg.. Then we changed something. And it started getting 36 mpg. After all these years... I think it was the distributor cap.

Now, with 350,007.1 km on it, the car is physically shot. To demonstrate, 's a video of me amputating a section of rust that was falling off. The other side is just as bad, and there's a big horizontal split alongside the side of the trunk. Literally every part of the car is rusty. I don't know how long I could legally drive it anymore, but it's my emergency car if I need. Thinking about it though, the 72,000km I put on it, according to this mpg calculator, would cost $8,337 at 26 mpg and $6,021 at 36 mpg. I basically wasted 2 grand on my fuel car because I never really cared enough to fix up the problems.

So the Vitara comes into place in the winter, the tires on the Accord are completely bald, I have to drive highway speeds on sheet ice for half the year so I had to do something. I had the choice of $500 on tires or buy a new vehicle. I took door #2. I researched literally every vehicle on the market, I had to have a 5-speed manual and it needed to be a true 4x4 with the transfer case, something I could disable and have rear wheel drive all summer. I also needed it to be as efficient as possible, so a 4-cylinder would be preferred. I love the Vitara so much that when I saw there was one in the city I just instantly bought it that day. I didn't even look under the car, and.. it's already pretty rotten, I basically acted on impulse and should have looked for a cleaner one. My $2800 Vitara is now a $5600 Vitara with the repairs I've had to do to get it to this point. A lot of these repairs dramatically increased my fuel mileage, instead of adding power I'm just trying to get all that power back, and I'm almost complete with that. Fuel filter, spark plugs, diff fluid, and a couple other things on friday, then it will be basically as good as it gets. In a couple years I want to get the timing chain replaced and put in a new water pump, oil pump, and anything else that could theoretically hinder it's performance.

Now I'm at a point where I don't need to change anything, the truck just works and runs great. Now I'm thinking about actual mods, basically I want to plan on modifying/upgrading every component possible, but prioritize them in such a way that they are 2-3-4 years down the road and may not ever do them, but just to have a roadmap of what I want to do with it and be aware of every upgrade that I could theoretically purchase and install. Price determines priority in a lot of cases.

Now when I bought the Vitara it was giving me 20-21 mpg, now my last update was 27.3 mpg but city driving, it's probably easy 28.5 mpg if all highway. Every week or so spending $300-400 on it to try recover another 0.5 mpg is basically the plan. I think the thing will cap out at about 32-33 mpg before aero mods. With a few other mods I might be able to get it close to where my rustbucket Accord is now. It sounds like being a "modern vehicle" I won't have much to gain but there is. This thing has a mechanical fan on the engine, I'm swapping it for an electric and there is basically a guaranteed increase in mileage. Putting an thin belly pan plate under the body could help quite a bit too. I bet if I put $2000 more into the truck in specific areas I could come out at a net gain in 3-4 years. Plus that whole time, I have a very efficient truck that can haul ass in 3 foot of snow. Worth every penny.

Not particularly interested in skinny tires though! Rides good enough on stock sized rubber! Also, my driving tactics are already hypermile-focused.

__________________
  Reply With Quote
Reply  Post New Thread


Thread Tools




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.5.2
All content copyright EcoModder.com