Electric vehicles cost

[mpg_numbers_guy]

Do you think electric vehicle batteries will ever decrease in cost, or as technology improves we will see batteries going for an increasingly high rate? Consider the 1st gen Insight battery for $1500 to the recent Prius battery for $2500+, to the new Leaf batteries for $5000-$8000. Basically once a car's battery dies, the car will be totaled. For batteries it's more of a when rather than an if; with gasoline engines some are unreliable, but others have proven reliable for decades and hundreds of thousands of miles. I'm all about hybrid cars - especially ones like the Insight and Civic Hybrid in their Gen 1 versions - where you can choose to run it with battery and without, but there are so many expensive points of failure with electric cars. Most of the time you can't perform major repairs on an electric car (I'm sure some can, so don't rake me over the coals for saying that), while an average car owner with decent mechanical knowledge can do most of the repairs on a gasoline powered car. I guess the main question is if the savings from no oil changes, potential transmission replacements from unreliable manufacturers, etc., will ever compensate for eventually having to replace a $4000-$8000 battery. If most cars ever go full electric, I imagine used car market prices will change drastically. Even now it's harder to estimate the value of a used hybrid compared to a general ICE-powered automobile.

(this coming from a guy studying computer engineering rather than mechanical engineering)

[Isaac Zackary]

Originally Posted by redpoint5

I've seen Leaf owners in Vancouver, WA with a rapidly degrading battery. I really don't think the '11-'13 batteries weren't designed to hold up well. It's been a while since I looked into it, but I wonder how the so called lizard batteries have been holding up?

The i3 battery should hold up much better since it has active thermal management.

Heck, even my 3 kWh Prius battery has active management (a fan).

There are 4 or 5 different battery chemistries in the Leafs so far, some better and worse than others. They are:

1. Worse Model Years 2011, 2012 and 2013's built up through April 2013
2. Better MY 2013's built from April 2013 and all MY 2014's
3. Better MY's 2015 and 2016's with the 24kW (Lizard) batteries.
4. Worse All 30kWh batteries (MY's 2016 and 2017).
5. Unkown The 40kWh battery (MY's 2018 and beyond).

All of them are mainly affected by ambient temperature. There are people who have some of the "worse" batteries in that list that live in places like Minnesota that still have more than 80% battery capacity even after 5 or more years. But if you live in a hot area like southern Arizona all of these batteries fail quickly with the 2's and 3's lasting just a bit longer than the 1's and 4's.

The 2's and 3's (Lizard) batteries do hold up a bit better than the others. But not as well as they should. I find it a bit perturbing that the 30kWh batteries are just about as bad as the 2011 and 2012's. The 40kWh battery has also been known to have problems like not wanting to rapid charge. Some say the Leafs with the #2 and 3 batteries mentioned above are really the only way to go if you get a Leaf. You can do more with them and get more out of them than the newer Leafs. You'd think that batteries would get better with newer models, not worse!

[Snax]

Originally Posted by Xist

How long does it really take to change the oil and spark plugs? I can change the oil in my Civic without tools. Pop the hood, slide the pan under, release the QuickValve, stand up, unscrew the filter, and do something while everything drains.

Screw on a new filter, close the Fumoto, slide out the pan, screw in the cover, and top off the oil. It also gives me a chance to check out the undercarriage, but I guess that is not important with an electric vehicle.

Spark plugs? Pop the hood, pop the boots, and use my speed wrench to pull the plugs. Drop in new plugs, tighten, pop on the boots, and close the hood.

Also, I have a car that drives the same distance year after year.

That's DIY vs. the masses that don't for one thing. I don't think there is any question that people who can and are willing to wrench some can save money with an ICE.

But realistically, how long DOES it take for you to do those things? You have to purchase them. You have to gap plugs. You have to deal with oil cleanup and disposal.

No, it's not a lot, but it adds up over time, and it is MUCH more time if one does not DIY. I personally HATE dealing with mundane things like oil and spark plug changes. I pay others to do the former and reluctantly do the latter myself because I know how ridiculously shops will rip people off, but that is me. Most people do none of it themselves.

https://www.foxnews.com/auto/many-am...re-study-finds

WE are doers. We understand this stuff. It's easy to take for granted that most people cannot be bothered with it.

[Isaac Zackary]

Originally Posted by Xist

How long does it really take to change the oil and spark plugs? I can change the oil in my Civic without tools. Pop the hood, slide the pan under, release the QuickValve, stand up, unscrew the filter, and do something while everything drains.

Screw on a new filter, close the Fumoto, slide out the pan, screw in the cover, and top off the oil. It also gives me a chance to check out the undercarriage, but I guess that is not important with an electric vehicle.

Spark plugs? Pop the hood, pop the boots, and use my speed wrench to pull the plugs. Drop in new plugs, tighten, pop on the boots, and close the hood.

Also, I have a car that drives the same distance year after year.

All new vehicles keep getting harder and harder to work on. I've heard of cars that you have to take them back to the dealer to have them recalibrate the ECU because you changed the spark plugs. I've had cars that you nearly have to take the engine out to change the spark plugs too. Actually there are cars that you have to do that. I also had to get a special wrench just to change the oil on my new Toyota. I've rebuilt engines before. But I haven't been able to even figure out the cooling system on my current car so that I can install a better block heater!

But yes. I like getting out the manual and following the maintenance schedule and looking for things that could be going wrong before they happen.

[Snax]

Originally Posted by Isaac Zackary

All new vehicles keep getting harder and harder to work on.

That's the other thing I was going to touch on. As people demand more from their cars in terms of performance, economy, and options, new vehicles are increasingly complex. Try to find a new car without power windows or with a manual transmission these days etc. It might be available - if you special order it!

Consumer demands for technology are driving us forward on that front whether we like it or not. Don't ask me what a CAN bus is!

[redpoint5]

Originally Posted by Snax

That's DIY vs. the masses that don't for one thing. I don't think there is any question that people who can and are willing to wrench some can save money with an ICE.

On cars I don't value much, I prefer to have Jiffy Lube do a $20-$25 oil change rather than do it myself. These days I change the oil once a year myself, but I'm being a bit obsessive about it, as I'm sure the $20 conventional oil change would be fine.

I'd never trust a place like Jiffy Lube with spark plugs. Those I prefer to do myself, and I like to use longer lasting plugs so I never have to do a plug change again.

Originally Posted by Snax

Don't ask me what a CAN bus is!

CANadian bus is the same as a USA bus, only shorter.

[Xist]

The increasing difficulty of working on cars is a good point. I know there are cars where the owner cannot pop the hood and where there is not a dipstick, although when I heard of a car that required removal of the engine to replace the spark plugs, that was an old car.

Buyers demand more each year, but car manufacturers have new gimmicks each year, always trying to have features that their competitors do not, but also that your year-old car doesn't.

[redpoint5]

I find most Japanese cars relatively easy to work on. It's VWs that drive me nuts, requiring exhaust manifolds to be removed to access spark plugs, and that held on with security torx bolts, requiring a special tool.

Computers make things easier because you can pull a code and then google it. Carbs are certainly way more work than FI, especially considering I've never had to do any FI work on any vehicle. I suppose direct FI has its own problems, but I don't own anything that fancy.

[Isaac Zackary]

In my experience, my Nissan Leaf was the easiest car to work on. I plugged it in. Then I'd unplug it. Once in a while I'd check the brake pads, suspension parts, CV axle boots, etc. But I never had to replace a thing.

The next easiest car was my 1984 VW Golf diesel. It was like the Leaf except I had to change the oil every 5,000 miles or so and needed a CV axle replaced nearly once a year. I got so good at changing them that I can now change a VW CV axle in about 10 minutes. The car was also needing the timing belt replaced, and the valve lash and the ignition timing checked and adjusted if necessary. But I never got around to doing it while I owned the car. But for a car with 700,000 miles on it and still running strong it was a wonderful car to work on. Or should I say, "to not have to work on very much."

Now I have a 2013 Toyota Avalon Hybrid. It has been easy so far for the 4 months I've owned it. Just mainly oil changes, which I've already had to do two since I bought it. It did throw me for a loop that I needed a special tool to remove the oil filter. I also changed the transmission fluid on it, but got confused and drained the inverter coolant. (Who would have thought that the drain plug on the bottom of the transmission is for the inverter.) But right now the engine coolant temperature seems to be a bit low, making me think the thermostat may need replaced. And I'm having a hard time figuring this car out. I can't get a Haynes manual for it. So right now I'm kind of in the dark. With both of my old VW's I was able to get the original factory repair manuals for them.

Sure. Electronic stuff makes "it easy" for some people to just look up a code and google it. In my Chevy Astro I had the "Service Engine Soon" light constantly flashing. I changed nearly everything on that engine as far as the ignition and fuel injection systems go and never got the thing to stop flashing. I even had the factory repair manual that cost me some $200 and a Chinese GM Tech 2 for $300 and several other specialty tools I'll probably never use again and I still couldn't figure it out. It did run great, but that light drove me nuts.

[jamesqf]

Originally Posted by Xist

How long does it really take to change the oil and spark plugs?

And how often do you need to change them? Oil change is 7500 miles on the Insight, spark plug change interval is 105K miles - and there are only 3 of them :-)

Really, a lot of the annoying & time-consuming maintenance jobs would seem to be the same on gas & electric. Things like light bulbs (some of which can be really frustrating to get to) or wheel bearings.