EPA implements E85 testing for 2016 model year

[Big Dave]

Re: Post #23

“BTUs don't linearly translate to mpg…”

Big Dave says:
In the same cycle engine the issue is BTU/mile.




“Fuel grade ethanol is denatured with gasoline and/or gasoline components.”

Big Dave says:
That might explain why the stuff is so expensive in terms of $/MMBTU.






“I'm not buying BTUs; I'm buying gallons.”

Big Dave says:
If you expect the vehicle to move, you are buying BTUs. Gasoline, diesel, E85, E10, CNG, propane - all are providing heat to the engine. If fluffy bunnies would provide heat we’d burn them, too. Heat turns the wheels. That is the essence of the science of thermodynamics.




“…z"facts" has an agenda…”

Big Dave says:
Everybody has an agenda. The EPA has an agenda. ADM and Cargill have an agenda as well. My agenda is that of the motorist. "zfacts” calculations closely mirror my own calculations so they are probably a close approximation.



“IF gasohol was ever reviled…”

Big Dave says:
Gasohol was indeed reviled because the alcohol in it was hygroscopic and it absorbed water vapor from the empty space in the gas tank. Especially in the late winter and early spring as the OAT went back and forth across 32 degrees the gasohol would absorb moisture and fall out of solution with the gasoline and form a “vodka” (a mixture of alcohol and water) in the bottom of the tank. This vodka would get in the fuel lines and make the cars run ratty. Today they add methyl isobutyl ketone (MIBK) to stabilize the mixture. Chemically, MIBK is very similar to methyl tertiaty butyl ether (MTBE).




“Just preach facts instead of hyperbole please.”

Big Dave says:
I preach engineering fundamentals.



Re: Post #24
“One could even say ethanol has nothing to do with any increases.”

Big Dave says:
Taking corn off the food market by means of higher prices for making fuel drives the price of corn up. Much to the delight of Cargill and ADM. Just like organic chemistry and thermodynamics, the fundamentals matter in microeconomics.



“There's a food shortage in N.A.?”

Big Dave says:
There’s a shortage of tortilla flour in Mexico. Prior to the coming of corn ethanol, the Mexicans imported US-grown corn to make tortilla flour. I suspect high corn prices are driving the wave of immigration into the US.



Re: Post #25
“Is it the government that causes Everclear to cost that much more than fuel-grade ethanol?”

Big Dave says:
Have you ever seen the tax on potable spirits? Taxes are imposed by governments.




Re: Post #26
“The government getting involved in encouraging or discouraging behavior is the root of all our problems. How wonderful life would be if we didn't give a rip who was elected to any office anywhere because in the end it didn't effect our lives one way or the other.”

Big Dave says:
Hear! Hear!



Re: Post#27
“Did Edison's light bulbs need a subsidy to overtake sperm whale oil lamps as the dominant source of lighting?”

Big Dave says:
You are right on the point, but you skipped a step. Kerosene lamps displaced whale oil lamps and candles, making John D. Rockefeller rich in the process. Edison’s light bulb threatened the kerosene business. Fortunately for Rockefeller, the gasoline engine came along.

[Ecky]

My car doesn't run well on E85.

Causes a CEL, hybrid functions shut off, lean burn is screwy. Insight's engine is too tightly tuned to gasoline to run on high percent ethanol.

[Frank Lee]

Originally Posted by Big Dave

Re: Post #23

“BTUs don't linearly translate to mpg…”

Big Dave says:
In the same cycle engine the issue is BTU/mile.

*Cents/mile is the BOTTOM LINE.


“Fuel grade ethanol is denatured with gasoline and/or gasoline components.”

Big Dave says:
That might explain why the stuff is so expensive in terms of $/MMBTU.

*"Today fuel grade ethanol is denatured at the 2 to 2.5v% level"




“I'm not buying BTUs; I'm buying gallons.”

Big Dave says:
If you expect the vehicle to move, you are buying BTUs. Gasoline, diesel, E85, E10, CNG, propane - all are providing heat to the engine. If fluffy bunnies would provide heat we’d burn them, too. Heat turns the wheels. That is the essence of the science of thermodynamics.

*When I give my dollars to the cute cashier girl, it is for gallons.

“…z"facts" has an agenda…”

Big Dave says:
Everybody has an agenda. The EPA has an agenda. ADM and Cargill have an agenda as well. My agenda is that of the motorist. "zfacts” calculations closely mirror my own calculations so they are probably a close approximation.

*Calcs from one who hasn't even tested it. What about the REAL data from EMers?

“IF gasohol was ever reviled…”

Big Dave says:
Gasohol was indeed reviled because the alcohol in it was hygroscopic and it absorbed water vapor from the empty space in the gas tank. Especially in the late winter and early spring as the OAT went back and forth across 32 degrees the gasohol would absorb moisture and fall out of solution with the gasoline and form a “vodka” (a mixture of alcohol and water) in the bottom of the tank. This vodka would get in the fuel lines and make the cars run ratty. Today they add methyl isobutyl ketone (MIBK) to stabilize the mixture. Chemically, MIBK is very similar to methyl tertiaty butyl ether (MTBE).

*Good, it's fixed. Why are we talking about it?


“Just preach facts instead of hyperbole please.”

Big Dave says:
I preach engineering fundamentals.

*No, you don't.

Re: Post #24
“One could even say ethanol has nothing to do with any increases.”

Big Dave says:
Taking corn off the food market by means of higher prices for making fuel drives the price of corn up. Much to the delight of Cargill and ADM. Just like organic chemistry and thermodynamics, the fundamentals matter in microeconomics.

*Brewer's grains. So how much of that corn is REALLY off the food market?

“There's a food shortage in N.A.?”

Big Dave says:
There’s a shortage of tortilla flour in Mexico. Prior to the coming of corn ethanol, the Mexicans imported US-grown corn to make tortilla flour. I suspect high corn prices are driving the wave of immigration into the US.

*I don't care about Mexico, or any other region where the main hobby is reproducing with no ****s given about the carrying capacity of their environment.

Re: Post #25
“Is it the government that causes Everclear to cost that much more than fuel-grade ethanol?”

Big Dave says:
Have you ever seen the tax on potable spirits? Taxes are imposed by governments.

*Yup, booze taxes are high. How much of the price premium for booze vs fuel ethanol is tax? Also... what does this have to do with anything besides obfuscate and distract?


Re: Post #26
“The government getting involved in encouraging or discouraging behavior is the root of all our problems. How wonderful life would be if we didn't give a rip who was elected to any office anywhere because in the end it didn't effect our lives one way or the other.”

Big Dave says:
Hear! Hear!

*Yeah, I'd like to hear how much cheering there'd be if all trade rules and regs were abolished.

Re: Post#27
“Did Edison's light bulbs need a subsidy to overtake sperm whale oil lamps as the dominant source of lighting?”

Big Dave says:
You are right on the point, but you skipped a step. Kerosene lamps displaced whale oil lamps and candles, making John D. Rockefeller rich in the process. Edison’s light bulb threatened the kerosene business. Fortunately for Rockefeller, the gasoline engine came along.

*Not EVERYTHING warrants a start-up subsidy, and not NOTHING either. Besides, hasn't that ship sailed?

.

[Frank Lee]

Originally Posted by Ecky

My car doesn't run well on E85.

Causes a CEL, hybrid functions shut off, lean burn is screwy. Insight's engine is too tightly tuned to gasoline to run on high percent ethanol.

Could very well be. Ever tried 50/50 or less?

[samwichse]

Originally Posted by Frank Lee

What a pantload.

Says nothing about the feed GOTTEN from ethanol plants.

Yup, meat prices among other things have gone up. Here: UPDATE 1-USDA raises beef, pork prices forecasts on drought, disease | Reuters

Yes, what a pantload, I mean:

Ethanol policies increase the cost of food at least 1.5 percent, Babcock says. And the impact on meat prices is significantly greater.

What does an economics professor know about economics vs. Frank Lee? Congrats, there are more reasons than one for the rise in food prices. But that one is still a reason for rising food prices.

[Ecky]

Originally Posted by Frank Lee

Could very well be. Ever tried 50/50 or less?

Not yet, but I've seen no degradation by using E10. I'm sure someday I'll need to find the break-point but E85 is only a few cents cheaper than pump gas right where I live so it's presently just an academic matter.

EDIT: The E85 stations are always packed, too. Even at 95% the cost of regular gasoline, people line up to put it in their tanks.

[Frank Lee]

Consensus on the exact numbers doesn't exist. I can site pro and con ethanol experts that say opposing things. Bottom line, if ethanol does cause increases, the question is to what degree. Cons love to conveniently forget about all the other- likely far greater- things that impact prices and supply.

Oooh 1.5%. Starving zombies are flooding the streets.

[Frank Lee]

Originally Posted by Ecky

Not yet, but I've seen no degradation by using E10. I'm sure someday I'll need to find the break-point but E85 is only a few cents cheaper than pump gas right where I live so it's presently just an academic matter.

EDIT: The E85 stations are always packed, too. Even at 95% the cost of regular gasoline, people line up to put it in their tanks.

The fuel costs the day I ran my cents/mile numbers were $3.35 E10, $2.15 E85.

[Frank Lee]

Re: start-up subsidies: Space program. Discuss. Or just cuss.

[Big Dave]

Let’s take my trusty old B-body Impala.

Second Generation LT-1 small block. 285 HP 10.6:1 compression Automatic transmission.
Runs on RUG (Not E10) get 20 MPG.
(20 miles)(gal) divided by (gal)(0.116 MMBTU) = 172.4 miles/MMBTU
I filled her up this morning for $2.99/gal Across the street they were selling E85 for$2.19/gal
RUG: ($2.99)(gal) divided by (gal)(20 miles) = $0.15/mile.

The engine is pretty powerful, so let’s say I accept the de-rate and run E85 in it.
The EPA won’t let me jack up the compression ratio or advance the spark timing. That increases NOx emissions and the EPA views that as “tampering.” So the car still gets 172.4 miles per MMBTU.

That MMBTU requires (1 MMBTU)(gal) divided by (0.076 MMBTU) = 13.16 gal
(174.4 miles)(MMBTU) divided by (MMBTU)(13.16 gal) = 13.25 MPG

E85: ($2.19)(gal) divided by (gal)(13.25miles) = $0.165/mile.

So, I put up with the hassle of E85 get 10% higher per mile fuel costs and eat a 34% power de-rate. Looks like a loser to me.


Let’s say I have more money than Soros and put a fifth generation small block LT-1 engine in it. Same displacement 11.5:1 compression ratio direct injection VVT. Runs 87 octane RUG OK. Same vehicle. Assume I drive the same (like most ecomodders/hypermilers I can drive in a very disciplined fashion). So the car still gets the same mileage per BTU and the cost-per mile is unchanged. 10% greater fuel cost per mile than on RUG.

Still looks like a loser to me.


Re: Post #33
“How much of the price premium for booze vs fuel ethanol is tax?”

Big Dave says:
Almost all of it.




“…I'd like to hear how much cheering there'd be if all trade rules and regs were abolished.”

Big Dave says:
Nearly all trade rules and regs favor one competitor over the other always at the expense of the consumer. Ever heard of “regulatory capture?” A very common phenomenon. Abolish all trade rules and regs, and I’ll cheer even louder.




Re: Post #39
“…Space program…”

Big Dave says:
Since NASA dispensed with manned space travel I think we can dispense with NASA. Let the private sector and military do the satellite launches.