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Old 02-04-2019, 04:23 PM   #151 (permalink)
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1800 per month???
Maybe Tesla can teach them how to produce more EVs...

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Old 02-04-2019, 04:39 PM   #152 (permalink)
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1800 per month???
Maybe Tesla can teach them how to produce more EVs...
Hyundai / Kia made 7.5 million cars in 2018. I doubt there is anything Tesla can teach them.

Hyundai sold 53,144 plug in vehicles in 2018:

Hyundai Kona Electric – 22,787
Hyundai IONIQ Electric – 21,002
Hyundai IONIQ Plug-In – 8,977
Hyundai Sonata Plug-In – 348



I don't have Kia's Global sales.
They sold 21,588 plug-ins in Europe and 5,488 in the USA.

https://insideevs.com/hyundai-sold-8000-ev-december/
https://insideevs.com/kias-plug-in-car-sales-europe/
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Old 02-04-2019, 05:00 PM   #153 (permalink)
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If the Federal Tax Credit was a point-of-sale rebate that would make sense. The money would come directly off the sales price and the monthly payment would be lower. Most people don't have the money to pay or finance an extra $7500 up front with the hope of getting it back from the government up to a year later. Could your average buyer even get approved for the loan?
The Volt has an MSRP of $33,500, which is around the average vehicle sale price.

There's other tricks such as converting IRA contributions to Roth IRA to artificially boost tax liability and get the full $7,500. How many people have convertible IRAs though, and of those, who are savvy enough to know to do that?

I read somewhere that a single person making $60k generally has at least $7,500 in federal tax liability.

I'd imagine most people purchasing a brand new Prius Prime are at least in that income category.

Anyhow, I agree that the funds should be immediate so it would be less regressive. Besides all that, I'm against government picking technology winners and losers via subsidy. They should approach environmental problems from a higher level and let the market achieve determine how to achieve the objectives.
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Old 02-04-2019, 05:24 PM   #154 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JSH View Post
Hyundai / Kia made 7.5 million cars in 2018. I doubt there is anything Tesla can teach them.

Hyundai sold 53,144 plug in vehicles in 2018
Tesla sold more EVs in a quarter than Hyundai sold EVs plus PHEVs combined in a year: Q3 (83,500) and again in Q4 (90,700).
Hyundai sold a lot of cars before Tesla even existed. Yet Tesla managed to become one of the leading EV manufacturers from scratch. Hyundai had a far better position at first, but didn't.

If Tesla can't teach Hyundai it is Hyundai's reluctance, not Tesla falling short.
Tesla's patents are open domain and license free.
As a Hyundai owner and fan I can only hope they do take the chance to learn from Tesla.
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Old 02-04-2019, 05:40 PM   #155 (permalink)
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The Volt has an MSRP of $33,500, which is around the average vehicle sale price.

There's other tricks such as converting IRA contributions to Roth IRA to artificially boost tax liability and get the full $7,500. How many people have convertible IRAs though, and of those, who are savvy enough to know to do that?

I read somewhere that a single person making $60k generally has at least $7,500 in federal tax liability.

I'd imagine most people purchasing a brand new Prius Prime are at least in that income category.
Taking just the standard deductions:

A single person making $64,500 would pay $7490 in Federal Income tax.
A couple making $89,500 would pay $7,479
A family of 3 making $104,000 would pay $7,479
A family of 4 making $113,000 would pay $7,459

If the family of 4 made $64,500 they would only get $479 from the tax credit.

https://www.hrblock.com/tax-calculator/#/en/te/expense
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Old 02-04-2019, 05:43 PM   #156 (permalink)
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Quote:
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Tesla sold more EVs in a quarter than Hyundai sold EVs plus PHEVs combined in a year: Q3 (83,500) and again in Q4 (90,700).
Hyundai sold a lot of cars before Tesla even existed. Yet Tesla managed to become one of the leading EV manufacturers from scratch. Hyundai had a far better position at first, but didn't.
Nobody cares that Tesla is the number 1 EV manufacturer. What investors care about is earning per share and the stock price.

Hyundai will exist in 10 years. Tesla is still a question mark.

Again, there is nothing for mainstream automakers to learn from Tesla. Tesla's primary benefit to the industry is showing that there is limited demand for EVs.
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Old 02-04-2019, 09:28 PM   #157 (permalink)
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I wouldn't say traditional automakers have nothing to learn from Tesla, but they certainly don't have much to learn for the current market. Tesla could learn how to make a decent body and reduce manufacturing costs. Other companies could learn... direct to customer sales?

My guess is Tesla's survivability has more to do with government regulations than consumer demand.
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Old 02-04-2019, 10:33 PM   #158 (permalink)
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I honestly think mfg's are ****ting themselves that they have allowed tesla to get to the point where they are now losing market share to a company that was not even a competitor 10 yrs ago.

How many EV's are now being developed? I would guess the next 2,3, maybe 4 mfg's that go majority EV will dominate the market. It will be similar to hyundai or kia in the last 20 yrs, trying to be competitive in a well established market.
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Old 02-05-2019, 12:25 AM   #159 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JSH View Post
Taking just the standard deductions:

A single person making $64,500 would pay $7490 in Federal Income tax.
A couple making $89,500 would pay $7,479
A family of 3 making $104,000 would pay $7,479
A family of 4 making $113,000 would pay $7,459

If the family of 4 made $64,500 they would only get $479 from the tax credit.

https://www.hrblock.com/tax-calculator/#/en/te/expense
That sad truth to all of the tax credit hype: Most people can't use it directly if at all. That's the number one reason I didn't even consider a new EV purchase.
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Old 02-05-2019, 01:17 AM   #160 (permalink)
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Most couples make $90k combined, who are also purchasing a new $40,000 car.

... and as I've said, anyone who has squirreled away a meager amount of IRA savings can max the credit by converting to a Roth.

I qualify for the full rebate and still can't stomach the price of a new vehicle.

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