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Old 02-04-2019, 04:49 AM   #141 (permalink)
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The Hyundai Ioniq seems relatively affordable.
It comes as a hybrid, PHEV and full EV.

https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/hyundai/ioniq
Quote:
The 2019 Hyundai Ioniq hybrid starts at $22,400, which makes it one of the least-expensive alternative-fuel compact cars. Higher trim levels of the hybrid model start at $24,950 and $28,550, respectively. The 2019 Ioniq Plug-In Hybrid retails for $25,350, and the Ioniq Electric starts at $29,815.
So the EV is 7.4 grand more expensive than the hybrid. It should make up for that in lower cost per mile. It may be more affordable than the hybrid, despite the higher initial cost.

Sales reflects this; the EV version outsells the other versions in our country, at least. Even though the hybrid came to market first, the EV is more abundant on the road.
And this far I only spotted one PHEV version in the wild.

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Old 02-04-2019, 07:04 AM   #142 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedDevil View Post
The Hyundai Ioniq seems relatively affordable.
It comes as a hybrid, PHEV and full EV.

https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/hyundai/ioniq

So the EV is 7.4 grand more expensive than the hybrid. It should make up for that in lower cost per mile. It may be more affordable than the hybrid, despite the higher initial cost.

Sales reflects this; the EV version outsells the other versions in our country, at least. Even though the hybrid came to market first, the EV is more abundant on the road.
And this far I only spotted one PHEV version in the wild.
EV is a compliance car, PHEV is limited availablility.

Cali is a big market as is carb so sales are fine but it means a flight or used example outside Carb.
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Old 02-04-2019, 07:16 AM   #143 (permalink)
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Over here there's no compliancy to take into account; my Hyundai dealer would sell me any of the 3 types gladly. But most clients choose the EV.

The price difference between the versions is bigger here (€10,000) than in other markets, but so is the difference in fuel cost and road tax.
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Old 02-04-2019, 12:28 PM   #144 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedDevil View Post
Over here there's no compliancy to take into account; my Hyundai dealer would sell me any of the 3 types gladly. But most clients choose the EV.

The price difference between the versions is bigger here (€10,000) than in other markets, but so is the difference in fuel cost and road tax.
Interesting...

I have heard good things about the Hyundai & Kia EVs. I am hoping some day to get to test drive them.

I really wish Subaru would make a BEV (pure EV) out of the Outback with a medium to large battery (40-64k). With probably being able to charge at our normal three to four stops on the way, could make the drive to family on the east coast completely possible.

My biggest pet peeve right now is Lexus 'self charging EVs' for their non-plugin hybrids.
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Old 02-04-2019, 02:03 PM   #145 (permalink)
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I want to re-emphasize my ignorance of how the US tax credit works. Is 5 kWh the minimum size to get a federal tax credit? Is that total capacity, or only usable capacity?

If the minimum capacity for the minimum $2,500 credit is 5 kWh, that leaves $5,000 left at $417 per kWh, or 12 kWh. 5 kWh plus 12 kWh = 17 kWh for the maximum credit amount. What doesn't make sense is the first iteration of the Chevy Volt has a 16 kWh battery, yet it qualifies for the full federal tax credit amount.

Somewhere my understanding of the federal tax credit is wrong. Perhaps 4 kWh is the minimum size to get the tax credit. The plug-in Prius has a 4.4 kWh battery with 3 kWh usable, so where would it fit in?
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Old 02-04-2019, 02:42 PM   #146 (permalink)
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So the EV is 7.4 grand more expensive than the hybrid. It should make up for that in lower cost per mile. It may be more affordable than the hybrid, despite the higher initial cost.
The vast majority of car buyers in the USA shop based on monthly payment. They don't even look at the purchase price of the vehicle let alone the total cost of ownership including purchase price, maintenance, and fuel cost.

When someone walks into a car dealership in the USA the first thing the salesman will ask is "How much do you want to spend per month". Salesmen never want to talk about the actual cost of the car.

An extra $7,400 in purchase price adds $140 a month to a 6 year loan at 5% interest. That is a lot of money for many people.
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Old 02-04-2019, 02:48 PM   #147 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redpoint5 View Post
I want to re-emphasize my ignorance of how the US tax credit works. Is 5 kWh the minimum size to get a federal tax credit? Is that total capacity, or only usable capacity?

This is the text: https://www.irs.gov/businesses/plug-...30-and-irc-30d

Internal Revenue Code Section 30D provides a credit for Qualified Plug-in Electric Drive Motor Vehicles including passenger vehicles and light trucks.

For vehicles acquired after December 31, 2009, the credit is equal to $2,500 plus, for a vehicle which draws propulsion energy from a battery with at least 5 kilowatt hours of capacity, $417, plus an additional $417 for each kilowatt hour of battery capacity in excess of 5 kilowatt hours. The total amount of the credit allowed for a vehicle is limited to $7,500.



As I read that there is no minimum. Add a plug get $2500. Sell a vehicle with a 5 kWh battery you get another $417. From there you get $417 per kWh until the maximum of $7500 is hit.
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Old 02-04-2019, 02:54 PM   #148 (permalink)
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... which is why I hope the Tesla model of selling vehicles catches on. You pay the price as advertised, just like nearly everything else in the world. No stupid 4-squares with sleazy salesmen getting you to spend as much as you can afford, if not more.

The bottom line is always price. Don't let some salesman distract you from this.

I actually had a scheister salesman pretend to be angry that I was letting a deal go over a matter of "only a hundred bucks". I told him if it's only a hundred bucks, then the dealership should have no problem conceding it. I also told him I'm done working with him, and if the dealership wants a sale, they will send someone else to make the deal.

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As I read that there is no minimum. Add a plug get $2500. Sell a vehicle with a 5 kWh battery you get another $417. From there you get $417 per kWh until the maximum of $7500 is hit.
As I read it more, I was leaning toward that interpretation also. Thank you for weighing in. That would make the shortest range plug-in, my Prius, eligible for $2,500. Maybe it isn't crazy to include puny batteries in a car and collect the minimum credit amount. I still think there's a lot left on the table to maximize the credit with the minimum battery size (16 kWh).
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Old 02-04-2019, 03:23 PM   #149 (permalink)
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The bottom line is always price. Don't let some salesman distract you from this.
I don't. I'm very clear for the first contact with the dealer that we won't be doing 4 square or talking about payments. If the selling price isn't right there will be no sale.


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Originally Posted by redpoint5 View Post
As I read it more, I was leaning toward that interpretation also. Thank you for weighing in. That would make the shortest range plug-in, my Prius, eligible for $2,500. Maybe it isn't crazy to include puny batteries in a car and collect the minimum credit amount. I still think there's a lot left on the table to maximize the credit with the minimum battery size (16 kWh).
If the Federal Tax Credit was a point-of-sale rebate that would make sense. The money would come directly off the sales price and the monthly payment would be lower. Most people don't have the money to pay or finance an extra $7500 up front with the hope of getting it back from the government up to a year later. Could your average buyer even get approved for the loan?
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Old 02-04-2019, 03:42 PM   #150 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rmay635703 View Post
EV is a compliance car, PHEV is limited availablility.

Cali is a big market as is carb so sales are fine but it means a flight or used example outside Carb.
Hyundai has a shortage of batteries for their EVs and PHEV's. With a limited number of vehicles available they are prioritizing their home market and EU countries like Norway. Even then, Hyundai / Kia sold far more plug-in vehicles then required by CARB in 2018. (7,883)

From Hyundai:

I asked them point-blank if the Niro EV would be produced in volumes only to meet California ZEV-compliance numbers. “We’re way beyond that,” said Koswoski. He said that Kia has plenty of zero-emissions credits and that it’s selling the car in Georgia, Texas, and Hawaii, which are not ZEV states. “Our plan for volume exceeds what we’re legally bound to sell,” he said.

At the same time, Koswoski said volume is globally constrained because Kia Motors America can’t get the desired allocation from the parent company. “The truth is that demand in other markets around the world is so strong,” he said. Kosowski explained that regulatory pressures, especially in Europe, dictate that countries such as Norway are a higher priority than the United States. “We have this conversation all the time with our leadership about how we need more cars.”

https://insideevs.com/details-kia-niro-ev-launch/

About Hyundai's battery shortage:

“In Hyundai’s home market of South Korea, where the IONIQ Electric has already become the best selling all-electric model, customers are now looking at wait times up to 4-5 months to get the car.”

“In the US, good luck finding hardly any in customer’s hands today (99 sold through May), let alone in dealer stock.”

“With 5,581 sales in South Korea though the end of April, and a waiting list a mile long at home, clearly Hyundai’s aim right now is to service its domestic market before refocusing on the rest of the world.”

“Thankfully, Hyundai is not only aware of the problem, but intends to remedy the situation somewhat with a 50% production boost from 1,200 a month to 1,800 a month.”

“Half of that production is ear-marked for South Korea (600 today, soon 900). The automaker says it will take until July at the earliest to see those extra EVs start to arrive, meaning for the rest of the world, the Ioniq Electric drought will likely continue until at least September.”


https://insideevs.com/lg-chem-cant-k...oniq-electric/

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