Everyone but honda gets smacked on the sales floor

[SuperTrooper]

Originally Posted by jamesqf

Or perhaps the people who make decisions on what to build THINK (because of all that advertising from the other builders of oversize pickups) that people want more.



Then how come I didn't buy one? And how come you still see a lot of the '80s models, like mine, out there on the roads? There are two sides to this: the truck makers built what they thought a lot of people wanted, but then people like me who wanted something even smaller could only buy what they offered.



Not so. Again, I can only buy what they chose to make. I want a small, two-seat hatchback that gets good gas mileage. If Detroit, and indeed the Japanese, don't choose to make such a car, I can't buy it no matter how much I want it.

The plain fact is that Detroit deliberately drove the market towards large vehicles with its advertising. When small cars like the Mini were offered here (against the conventional wisdom), they sold well.

james, your wants are unique and don't reflect what most buyers want. Most people find 2 seaters fairly impractical. Similar to sports cars. Seating for 4 is the reason that the Prius was such a big success vs the Insight. It is a practical vehicle in addition to being a statement. Let's not forget that Honda lost money on every Insight it ever sold.

Regarding the Mini, it is marketed as a sports car, with the retro/nostalgia angle thrown in. Oh, and look what's happened: in response to focus group studies they've added a LARGER model, the Clubman, which has a third door and more rear room. Same thing when Scion redesigned the xB and xA (now the xD) - they got bigger!

You have one concept backwards: auto design and advertising FOLLOWS trends discovered in focus group testing. I was a part of the focus group testing for the second generation Dodge Caravan. On day one they showed us the new rounder version without the driver's side slider. Most people liked the new exterior, but were underwelmed at the overall execution. Day 2 they showed us a boxier design with 4 doors. The group liked the 4th door but preferred the rounder styling. The whole afternoon was spent discussing why we liked the 4th door idea. Just before we broke for the day they showed us a drawing of the rounded 4 door and it was universally acclaimed as ideal. By all reports Ford got similar feedback during the design of the Windstar, but ignored it, and Windstar sales were dismal until the 4th door came out.

Now we will have to wait 2-3 years to see where auto design goes. If gas prices stay high you can expect to see some of the smaller "world" cars brought over, but as I look around the world at what's available I don't see 2 seaters besides the Smart (and smart makes a 4 seater the US dealers are begging for). With what new cars cost now most people can't afford to give up the practicality of carrying more than one passenger. The Insight and the smart are statement cars that cost more than others and are bought to make a statement: "Look at me!"

[jamesqf]

Originally Posted by SuperTrooper

james, your wants are unique and don't reflect what most buyers want. Most people find 2 seaters fairly impractical. Similar to sports cars.

Unusual, perhaps, but hardly unique. There are quite a few two-seaters in the parking lot here (research lab in Silicon Valley, so there's a lot of disposable income), many with names like Porsche & BMW. And again, I don't think Mazda lost money on the Miata, or Honda on the CRX :-)

Seating for 4 is the reason that the Prius was such a big success vs the Insight. It is a practical vehicle in addition to being a statement. Let's not forget that Honda lost money on every Insight it ever sold.

Let's not forget that the Insight was a real-world experiment, and Honda INTENDED to lose money on it. That's why they priced them at much less than cost of production from day one, and never tried to sell more than the limited production they intended.

Regarding the Mini, it is marketed as a sports car, with the retro/nostalgia angle thrown in. Oh, and look what's happened: in response to focus group studies they've added a LARGER model...

YES! You're getting it now: small two-seater = sports car, and they sell. And now that you've got a production line set up for your popular two-seater, why not make a model with four seats that shares many of the same parts (& marketing), so as to leverage investment? It'll be interesting to see how sales of the Mini Clubman will affect sales of the standard model. My guess is that the standard will stay about the same, and the Clubman sales will be an increase.

You have one concept backwards: auto design and advertising FOLLOWS trends discovered in focus group testing.

And how many people do they have in these focus groups, a few dozen? So the process automatically trims off a lot of the outliers before it even starts. Then they go with what the majority of the focus group wants. Is it suprising that they never come up with anything but the least common denominator?

With what new cars cost now most people can't afford to give up the practicality of carrying more than one passenger.

Why is the ability to carry more than one passenger supposed to be practical? In five years of owning the Insight (and many more years of two-seaters before that), I can count the number of times I wanted to carry multiple people on the fingers of one foot :-)

The Insight and the smart are statement cars that cost more than others and are bought to make a statement: "Look at me!"

ALL cars are statements, even if the statement is "I don't need anything more than basic transportation". Would you like to argue that SUVs and penis-styled, jacked-up 4WD pickups aren't statement cars for 99% of their buyers? (Not just statements, in most cases, but outright lies :-)) As for the cost, the Insight cost less new than most of those, and way less than the closest comparison (in size & shape) I can think of: the 911 Porsche.

[cfg83]

jamesqf -

Originally Posted by jamesqf

Unusual, perhaps, but hardly unique. There are quite a few two-seaters in the parking lot here (research lab in Silicon Valley, so there's a lot of disposable income), many with names like Porsche & BMW. And again, I don't think Mazda lost money on the Miata, or Honda on the CRX :-)

...

Wasn't the CRX cancelled because of falling sales? I thought it's initial market niche was copy-catted by the "larger, more practical" Mazda MX3, Nissan Pulsar and Toyota Paseo.

I don't count disposable income 2-seaters. My assumption in that situation is more expensive performance over economy.

CarloSW2

[SuperTrooper]

james, you might find this interesting, or not. Last night at my lodge dinner the speaker was a brother from Mass who owns 13 dealerships covering 7 brands. Afterwards, I was able to speak to him and passed on your wants as a consumer. He was perplexed that you couldn't find a car to suit you. He said he'd gladly sell you a Smart For2, or a Kia Rio and he'd remove the rear seats for free (that was sarcasm on his part). He pulled out his blackberry and was able to locate 11 Smart dealers in California. He was skeptical of the long term sales outlook for the For2 and hopes the other variants arrive soon. He recalled having lots of 91 CRXs on the lot that he wound up shipping to a dealer in Florida, while he couldn't keep regular Civics in stock.

As far as pickup trucks, he's been selling Toyotas since 1973 and Hondas since 1975 and makes a visit to Japan at least once a year. He said the US trucks and the JDM trucks diverged in the early 80s. The US versions began to offer more size, creature comforts and power while the JDMs retained their strict utilitarian nature. That's about the same time Toyota moved US truck production here because tariffs on imported trucks made them too expensive. In Japan private individuals don't own trucks as they are seen as strictly a work vehicle. He gave me an interesting website:

New Japanese cars,japanese new cars,Japan new car exporter

You can look at all the JDM products. He imported a used Nissan Skyline GT-R through these people. The trucks look very basic. Just what you're looking for.

[jamesqf]

Originally Posted by SuperTrooper

He was perplexed that you couldn't find a car to suit you. He said he'd gladly sell you a Smart For2, or a Kia Rio and he'd remove the rear seats for free (that was sarcasm on his part). He pulled out his blackberry and was able to locate 11 Smart dealers in California.

No need to go to California, there's a Smart dealer on the way into town. (I don't live in California, just work there - mostly telecommuting, but I happened to be physically there yesterday.) Though the Smart is not the car I want - maybe if they imported the Roadster - nor the Kia. They sit up too damn high. The Insight suits me for now, until I can buy a hybrid Aptera on the used market.

In Japan private individuals don't own trucks as they are seen as strictly a work vehicle.

Which is what pickups should be, given a very broad definition of "work". They're for hauling stuff, otherwise they're just pretend, along the lines of the "big hat, no cattle" urban cowboy. Though even if you keep the fancy ones for the wannabees, I'd think there'd be a decent market for them as service trucks, especially now when fleet managers look at all the extra $4/gallon gas they're buying.

[cfg83]

SuperTrooper -

Originally Posted by SuperTrooper

...

As far as pickup trucks, he's been selling Toyotas since 1973 and Hondas since 1975 and makes a visit to Japan at least once a year. He said the US trucks and the JDM trucks diverged in the early 80s. The US versions began to offer more size, creature comforts and power while the JDMs retained their strict utilitarian nature. That's about the same time Toyota moved US truck production here because tariffs on imported trucks made them too expensive. In Japan private individuals don't own trucks as they are seen as strictly a work vehicle. He gave me an interesting website:

New Japanese cars,japanese new cars,Japan new car exporter

You can look at all the JDM products. He imported a used Nissan Skyline GT-R through these people. The trucks look very basic. Just what you're looking for.

Thanks for posting the URL! Here's The Honda "Civic" mini-wagon that they sell in Japan :

Honda Airwave New 2008 Model in Japan


Hmmmm, too bad it's only an automatic. And the steering wheel is on the passenger side.

CarloSW2

[Blue07CivicEX]

Just a note on this, I drove to the Honda dealership I bought my car at today to get an oil change (only to find out service is closed on sunday DOH!) But the more remarkable finding was the ENTIRE LOT WAS EMPTY. I drove around where there had been ROWS AND ROWS of honda civics 3 months ago and it was now completely empty, instead there were 2 FULL rows of honda pilots and only 3 - 4 door honda civics on the entire lot still with the travel plastic on. There were maybe a dozen new accords but I couldn't believe what was there, just a bunch of used trade-ins and SUV's.

[Arminius]

Makes me wonder why GM doesn't hype it's Cobalt XFE. The thing kicks butt on its competition on horsepower, yet beats the Corolla and Civic manual on highway mpg.

[NeilBlanchard]

Hi,

GM will be announcing more cutbacks today -- probably more factories closing and layoffs.

[Arminius]

GM stock at 54-year low. Sad.