Gas prices in 2012? At least $4?

[Ladogaboy]

They make ethanol with corncobs, don't they?

[Olympiadis]

Ok now, some of you elitist types and forward thinking "warmers" seem to me to be full-speed ahead on pushing technological advancement to move us into a new and improved age of energy usage and management. - Correct me if I'm wrong.

So, who cares to explain to me how collapsing western economies via ultra-high fuel prices, and driving present infrastructure into failure via crushing regulations and government power-grabs is going to help the cause of technological advancement along?

Did it occur to any of you that allowing our economy to thrive (relatively) on fossil fuel could very well be the primary thing that in fact keeps our technology on pace to actually find reasonable and practical solutions (real solutions) to our current problems and worries about running out of energy?

Sorry, but I just don't see the collapse of western economies as a step forward to a new technological advancement in energy management, unless you are hoping that China will find our solutions and save us.

Perhaps someone has an actual working explanation for how this is supposed to work out in the end beyond the typical elitist insults, catastrophizing, and hopes & dreams. If so, then I will appreciate the response.

So far, I do not appreciate people who are willing to gamble away my future in order to satisfy their own fears, forward their own status, or ease their own personal guilt. I don't mind individuals doing what they feel is right as long as it is limited to their own personal world, and doesn't end up controlling mine. Many of us do not feel the need for a "nanny", or a collective stock-broker that is largely incompetent.

You catastrophizers should really appreciate the "nick-of-time" factor that keeping our economy going could offer as far as advancements in technology. Surely you know that putting more people in the position of "struggling to survive" could/would take away their time for experimentation and ability to invest in R&D to discover new technology.
It seems that some people only think in the terms that raising taxes and dumping it onto college kids is the only way that we could intellectually save ourselves.
Am I wrong in how I'm judging my observations here?

I would really appreciate carefully thought out answers to my questions that could possibly offset the already negative view I have formed after reading some of the speculative nonsense and other shenanigans in this thread so far.

[NeilBlanchard]

Who has control of oil prices? It is a finite resource, after all.

[Frank Lee]

Oly: your whole premise is that high fuel prices will collapse the economy. I doubt it.

[redyaris]

Payed $1.08/L x 3.78 = $6.80/gal In the home of the Alberta tar sands... payed $38.90 to drive 660km of winter driving, = $0.0589/km x 1.609 = $0.0947/mile.
When I ask myself at what price level would I respond to the price signal in the market place; by driving much less, what I come up with is $34/gal!!! $5.40/L

[jamesqf]

Originally Posted by Ladogaboy

What I will grant you is that there is a snippet of elitism there...

And just what exactly is wrong with elitism? I've worked damned hard, over the course of my life, to acquire and maintain status as a member of a number of elites - ranging from Marine boot camp to graduate degrees. What's the alternative, to reduce everyone to the "democratic" least common denominator?

[jamesqf]

Originally Posted by Olympiadis

So, who cares to explain to me how collapsing western economies via ultra-high fuel prices, and driving present infrastructure into failure via crushing regulations and government power-grabs is going to help the cause of technological advancement along?

We could perhaps revisit this question when and if we ever get to the point where we experience ultra-high fuel prices. In point of fact, when adjusted for inflation current prices aren't at all out of line historically. See here: InflationData: Gasoline Inflation

Note also that Europe manages to run an economy with gas prices twice what they are in the US.

Did it occur to any of you that allowing our economy to thrive (relatively) on fossil fuel could very well be the primary thing that in fact keeps our technology on pace to actually find reasonable and practical solutions (real solutions) to our current problems and worries about running out of energy?

Nope, because A) we have a good number of workable alternatives; and B) few people use them because gasoline (and diesel, coal, etc) is cheaper.

[Olympiadis]

Originally Posted by jamesqf

Note also that Europe manages to run an economy with gas prices twice what they are in the US.

Europe is in the process of collapse right now from a combination of things, not the least of which are inflation of currency and a rising cost of living due to in large part to energy costs and over-regulation. We are following almost in lock-step with Europe's path to failure, except we now have plans on the table to make it even worse than they have.

Originally Posted by jamesqf

Nope, because A) we have a good number of workable alternatives; and B) few people use them because gasoline (and diesel, coal, etc) is cheaper.

We sure do, but they are all proven failures, -as in not viable at this point in their technological development. Hopefully that situation will improve without making them viable via regulation and inflation.

[Ladogaboy]

Originally Posted by jamesqf

And just what exactly is wrong with elitism? I've worked damned hard, over the course of my life, to acquire and maintain status as a member of a number of elites - ranging from Marine boot camp to graduate degrees. What's the alternative, to reduce everyone to the "democratic" least common denominator?

Oh, this is a conversation I wish you and I could have in person!

I am NOT opposed to elitism in the slightest, but I do think it's a mistake to preach or give unsolicited advice. Not because the adviser is wrong for doing so, but because it is a waste of time. People will do what they want to do regardless of what some other, wiser, person has told them. Unfortunately, real lessons need to be learned the hard way.

I think you'll find that I play the devil's advocate quite often. Sometimes I believe what I'm arguing, and sometimes, I'm just testing how much someone really knows about the side they are supporting. Either way, if someone can't convince me that they are correct (or at least worthy of consideration), I probably won't be actively looking to adjust my values or beliefs.

[Frank Lee]

Originally Posted by Olympiadis

Europe is in the process of collapse right now from a combination of things, not the least of which are inflation of currency and a rising cost of living due to in large part to energy costs and over-regulation. We are following almost in lock-step with Europe's path to failure, except we now have plans on the table to make it even worse than they have.

We sure do, but they are all proven failures, -as in not viable at this point in their technological development. Hopefully that situation will improve without making them viable via regulation and inflation.

Rising energy costs are not the root of Europe's problem. Your points didn't deserve bold font.