Gas prices in 2012? At least $4?

[Olympiadis]

Originally Posted by jamesqf

And just what exactly is wrong with elitism? I've worked damned hard, over the course of my life, to acquire and maintain status as a member of a number of elites - ranging from Marine boot camp to graduate degrees. What's the alternative, to reduce everyone to the "democratic" least common denominator?

Nothing is wrong, and it's your right and choice. Pat yourself on the back for having achieved, and mind your own affairs. Help other people when they ask you for it. Set the best example you can for others. Don't try to force what you believe in on others. Take a truly scientific approach to issues, which means staying open to possibilities that what you presently think is wrong.

Try to remember that the "flat-Earthers" were at one time considered the scientists and intellectuals.

True science is a self-correcting process, that is hindered in its evolution by many things, including elitism, arrogance, fear, and a host of other choice human qualities. We use the scientific method to guide us in areas of darkness and confusion.

The current state of affairs in the scientific community (to include the peer-review process) is so far corrupted as to be more dangerous to our future than at many other embarrassing times from our past.

This is what you get when politics and politically driven funding & agendas mix with science. What else could you have expected? We are all human.

The western society would not be the first to shoot itself in the foot while trying in desperation to save itself.

[Ladogaboy]

Originally Posted by Olympiadis

Am I wrong in how I'm judging my observations here?

Possibly, and here is why:

I would say 99% (hyperbole) of the fuel consumption in the United States is by people who are doing absolutely nothing the fix, change, overhaul, or upgrade the infrastructure. They have fallen into a lazy lifestyle that seems safe and stable. Let me outline this in terms of time:

Some of the youngest members on this forum may not remember what it was like to use a typewriter, a rotary phone, or possibly even a land line. They might not remember a time when there were no cellphones and no internet.

Some slightly older members might remember a time before digital cable, VCRs, microwave ovens, etc.

Some even older members might have actually grown up without a TV, and possibly without electricity or running water.

However, it is unlikely that any members on this forum were alive before fossil-fuel vehicles were almost ubiquitous.

In fact, most of those things that we, today, enjoy as a society were brought to us and made possible by fossil fuel. Very few people alive today can image a life without fossil fuels. The members of this forum, as a community, are FAR more knowledgeable than the average American, and I'd dare say that the members of this forum might be more knowledgeable than professionals who actually work in and advise on energy consumption and regulation.

Basically, what I am saying is that most Americans can't even comprehend what life would be like if fuel became a luxury item; if cars were no longer a viable option for getting from point A to point B; and if electricity alone cost a quarter to half of their paychecks. Humans, by their nature, are reactive, not proactive. One day, very soon, people are going to wake up to $10, $15, and $20 per gallon gas prices, and I'm not sure how the general public is going to react. Most likely, they will play the part of the victim, scream out loud about "Why is this happening!?!", and wonder why they didn't see it coming sooner. Well, they could have, but they chose ignorance instead. And these same ignorant people are burning through the cheap, easy fuel faster than the infrastructure to replace fossil fuels can be put in place.

[Olympiadis]

Originally Posted by Frank Lee

Rising energy costs are not the root of Europe's problem. Your points didn't deserve bold font.

Fixed.
Doubting is your right.
If you would go on to explain what you think is the root of Europe's problem, then I will gladly point out how whatever it is, is still part of the economy that is intimately tied to energy. That is unless you are suggesting a purely social issue is the root.

[Frank Lee]

I'm suggesting that energy prices can fluctuate without causing an apocalypse.

IIRC our European members including Arragonis, Euromodder, etc., put most of the blame on deficit spending including spending of dubious nature.

[Olympiadis]

Originally Posted by Ladogaboy

Possibly, and here is why:
I would say 99% (hyperbole) of the fuel consumption in the United States is by people who are doing absolutely nothing the fix, change, overhaul, or upgrade the infrastructure. They have fallen into a lazy lifestyle that seems safe and stable.

That is an excellent point to make.
I think it is a given that indeed a very large percentage of any society appears to be rather useless in a very direct sense, though that is not so true when their indirect and cumulative contributions come into play. After all, the people who directly make changes in society have to live some where, eat meals, get to work, communicate with others, etc...
But, point taken.

So, if I'm reading you right, then a better solution to our problems is more of a social change to reduce the amount of complacency in our society, in hopes that we become more productive as a species ?
I would see that as a good thing as long as the application was not so much a government control issue, or blatant infringements on human rights.
A way would have to be devised to use true incentives (not punishments) to encourage a social change like this.
I'm not talking tax increases and/or tax-breaks type of incentive, because that's really a punishment, infringes on rights, and adds to government power.
As for things like sovereignty and human rights, you can't put the genie back in the bottle.

Find someone to devise such a plan that is practical, acceptable, and voluntary, and I would likely support the idea.
What is happening currently is nothing short of a travesty as far as social manipulation and government power goes. It's stifling to the point that it just encourages more complacency, and less innovation.

[Frank Lee]

I would say 99% (hyperbole) of the fuel consumption in the United States is by people who are doing absolutely nothing the fix, change, overhaul, or upgrade the infrastructure. They have fallen into a lazy lifestyle that seems safe and stable.

I don't take this to mean they are building roads and bridges. I take this to mean that as long as they can fill up their Explosions and Subdivisions with cheap fuel, they will continue to idle them, use them for two-block trips, think that jobs 150 miles away from home are a good idea, etc. and never give the energy big picture any thought or consideration whatsoever.

Humans, by their nature, are reactive, not proactive. One day, very soon, people are going to wake up to $10, $15, and $20 per gallon gas prices, and I'm not sure how the general public is going to react. Most likely, they will play the part of the victim, scream out loud about "Why is this happening!?!", and wonder why they didn't see it coming sooner. Well, they could have, but they chose ignorance instead. And these same ignorant people are burning through the cheap, easy fuel faster than the infrastructure to replace fossil fuels can be put in place.

This part is the reason I rec'd it. It's not about productivity; it's about using resources wisely, being aware of the situation, and making some attempt to be proactive.

[Olympiadis]

Originally Posted by Frank Lee

I'm suggesting that energy prices can fluctuate without causing an apocalypse.

IIRC our European members including Arragonis, Euromodder, etc., put most of the blame on deficit spending including spending of dubious nature.

Correct.
Deficit spending forces inflation of currency. Currency is directly tied to energy pricing, especially when much of your energy is imported from an area that uses a different currency. That's like a double-fail.

The energy has to be bought from someone who does not value your currency as much as you do. They want "real" value, as in gold. The loss of your gold further forces inflation of your currency.

Just because we are not at a point of total failure now, both the indicators, and the future plans on the table lead us down the road to a clear point of failure, and that is not exactly an apocalyptic type of assessment. No, it's not the end of the world as we know it, but it's a place we'd rather not be economically. Europe is trying to warn us in the U.S.. They are saying "for God's sake, do something other than what we did". They may very well be correct.

Even with a best case scenario, a weakened economy leaves us more vulnerable to aggression around the world (think militarily), and that is unlikely to be good for anyone. Europeans remember the lessons of WWII better than we do.

I'm not catastrophizing with this. There is a proven pattern of happenings in the world, and some situations are clearly more desirable than others. It is prudent to consider such possibilities. It's not the equivalent of "chicken little".

[Frank Lee]

...but it's a place we'd rather not be economically.

I know people would like for the "bubbles" of this or that (.com, housing, whatever) to be the normal, but that isn't realistic. From time to time, living beyond one's means (from the smallest micro level to the biggest macro) catches up with 'em and things have to balance out. I think we've been living on credit and other forms of borrowed time for long enough that a correction is both necessary and good.

[Olympiadis]

Originally Posted by Frank Lee

This part is the reason I rec'd it. It's not about productivity; it's about using resources wisely, being aware of the situation, and making some attempt to be proactive.

Also correct.
But, brainwashing, misinformation, sensationalizing, or fascism are not the best answer.

Take care of your own affairs. Share information when asked. Set a good example for others. When possible teach critical thinking to others.

A person who searches and figures an answer on their own is worth 1000 people who were brainwashed with the same information.

Yes, some people are not "in the know" about certain things, but many are happy with their lives, and it is their lives.

The thinking that you can forcibly "fix" such things is absolutely the exact same type of reasoning that Adolf Hitler used when trying to engineer a more perfect race and society for the masses. He was quite successful in some areas of this plan, but as most of us realize now, there are always negatives to be considered.

We look back and see arrogance and megalomania, but at the time people were poor, out of work, and in a failing economy, and they looked upon Nazi Germany and Hitler with awe, and would say things like "wow, what a charismatic and forward thinking leader.".
This should be sounding very familiar if you're good with pattern recognition.

There is a big difference in sharing information, setting a good example for others, and arrogance. In management training you usually learn that one works better than the other when dealing with people.

Sitting on your high-horse and calling others dumb, tailer dwellers, or wienee-heads is just plain non-productive. Others are at least smart enough to pick up on that fact.

[Olympiadis]

Originally Posted by Frank Lee

I know people would like for the "bubbles" of this or that (.com, housing, whatever) to be the normal, but that isn't realistic. From time to time, living beyond one's means (from the smallest micro level to the biggest macro) catches up with 'em and things have to balance out. I think we've been living on credit and other forms of borrowed time for long enough that a correction is both necessary and good.

I do agree with you on this. Personal responsibility has been absent for too long. The nanny-state type legislation does have much to do with this. We are animals, and nature seeks path of least resistance. Politicians use irresponsibility as the "candy" in front of the baby. The banks and some business have also done the same.