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Old 06-12-2022, 04:18 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Gasoline VAPOR?

And the only other classic idea is Gasoline VAPOR.

Claims and reports of 100MPG are all over the place.

Fish Carb, Tom Ogal's system, etc.

I will see if I can do a proof of concept device.

Rich

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Old 06-12-2022, 09:05 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Attempting to vaporize gasoline before it even reaches the carburettor is not so great at all. You know, a carburettor is already meant to switch the gasoline (or ethanol) from liquid phase to vapour phase, as the fuel takes heat directly from the intake air, so a fuel already hot enough at the vapour phase would basically take no heat from the intake air, leading you to eventually need to run richer in order to prevent knock. Well, maybe if some of the already vaporized fuel could replace in volume some of the air flow, possibly it could act like said enrichment to prevent a knock, but most likely it would decrease performance too.
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Old 06-12-2022, 10:43 AM   #3 (permalink)
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I don't think liquid gas will get gaseous state when going through a carburetor ....it will get atomized and/or finer particles but I don't think gas will become gaseous format in a carburetor.... Not an expert though so might be wrong as well...

Have looked and searched info about vapor running engines and there are quite a bit stories showing running an ECI with gas vapor is possible... how to make gas vapors (in controlled and safe manner), needs thorough thinking.... and how to keep up with changing demands...
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Old 06-12-2022, 10:58 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Not an example of vapor carburetor but idea how to improve fuel economy....




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Old 06-12-2022, 11:19 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cRiPpLe_rOoStEr View Post
Attempting to vaporize gasoline before it even reaches the carburettor is not so great at all. You know, a carburettor is already meant to switch the gasoline (or ethanol) from liquid phase to vapour phase, as the fuel takes heat directly from the intake air, so a fuel already hot enough at the vapour phase would basically take no heat from the intake air, leading you to eventually need to run richer in order to prevent knock. Well, maybe if some of the already vaporized fuel could replace in volume some of the air flow, possibly it could act like said enrichment to prevent a knock, but most likely it would decrease performance too.
Well in my cases I am talking about Fuel Injection cars. They run dry intakes and the fuel is added at the intake valve.

None the less atomized fuel do not vaporize in any intake, 190/220 is not hot enough to cause any real vaporizing. Carburetors do not make any vapor any more than does fuel injectors, all they do is spray gasoline droplets which according to knowledge only about 30% vaporize within the combustion chamber.

If gasoline is converted to 100% vapor before fed into the engine reports claim only 30% will be needed for total combustion with no wasted fuel still burning in the exhaust stroke.

Your right about how to control the amount of vapor fed to the engine is one problem to be solved.

All of the claims will need to be tested and proven.

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Old 06-12-2022, 11:21 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tomi_k View Post
I don't think liquid gas will get gaseous state when going through a carburetor ....it will get atomized and/or finer particles but I don't think gas will become gaseous format in a carburetor.... Not an expert though so might be wrong as well...

Have looked and searched info about vapor running engines and there are quite a bit stories showing running an ECI with gas vapor is possible... how to make gas vapors (in controlled and safe manner), needs thorough thinking.... and how to keep up with changing demands...
I agree with you on all points.

And I do have an idea on how to make vapor safely and to control demand.

Rich
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Old 06-12-2022, 01:55 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Port fuel injected engines generally spray fuel early on the back of the hot intake valves before they open, which fully vaporizes the gasoline before it enters the cylinder.

Direct injection engines do not, of course, which I think (?) is why they produce soot. However, DI engines typically also get better fuel economy.

Gasoline vapor claims are unicorn material.

Last edited by Ecky; 06-12-2022 at 02:06 PM..
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Old 06-12-2022, 02:28 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Temprature:

What I forsee happening by adding gasoline vapor is if the air temperature isn't high enough to keep it vaporized it will condense back into liquid droplets. But if the intake temperature is high, the chances of detonation go up meaning you have to lower your compression ratio and/or retard the timing, both of which will hurt fuel efficiency.

And even if you could get it into a gaseous state in cool air, the liquid fuel droplets act as a way to cool the charge to prevent detonation. So again, you'd have to lower the compression ratio or retard the timing or use higher octane fuel. This is why natural gas is a good fuel for this since it's already a gas and it also has an extremely high level of octane.

One drawback to gaseous fuels is you get less power. But that can be a good thing for fuel mileage. Since gasses take up more space than liquids, you get less air into the cylinder, and therefore less fuel to maintain a correct AFR. That also means you have to keep your throttle more open, resulting in less pumping losses.

But what could be helpful is extreme atomization. If you could make the fuel as fine of a mist as possible that would help on most all accounts. Maybe gasifying gasoline and feeding it into air that cools it into a fog-like mist would be the key. Or just finding other ways to get it as fine as possible. Ultrasonic vibrations? Of course avoiding things that deatomize fuel are just as important. Making the intake stream bend as little as possible with as few vortices as possible so that fuel doesn't get flung out of the air, for an example.
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Old 06-12-2022, 02:43 PM   #9 (permalink)
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"Port fuel injected engines generally spray fuel early on the back of the hot intake valves before they open, which fully vaporizes the gasoline before it enters the cylinder."


Sorry that is incorrect, this hot intake valve at around 500 degrees helps vaporize some of the fuel, but cannot get it all. In theory it helps with a part vaporize which help start the burn sooner and faster that help vaporize more of the fuel within the chamber.

"Direct injection engines do not, of course, which I think (?) is why they produce soot. However, DI engines typically also get better fuel economy."


I know that does not really compute…all I can guess it they inject less fuel as part of the system.


"Gasoline vapor claims are unicorn material."


YET cars truly can only burn vapor.

Rich
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Old 06-12-2022, 02:44 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ecky View Post
Port fuel injected engines generally spray fuel early on the back of the hot intake valves before they open, which fully vaporizes the gasoline before it enters the cylinder.

Direct injection engines do not, of course, which I think (?) is why they produce soot. However, DI engines typically also get better fuel economy.

Gasoline vapor claims are unicorn material.
I 100% agree with Ecky.

Well know ICE Professor of Mechanical Engineering John B. Heywood talk about this in several parts of his books.
Quote: "Unburn hydrocarbon levels in the exhaust of a spark-ignition engine under normal operating conditions are typically in the range of 1000 to 3000 ppm C1. This corresponds to between about 1 and 2 1/2 percent of the fuel flow into the engine."

Also, one of our present ICE Gods, Heinz Pitsch talk about this in detail.

The heavier compounds are there for a reason and they are the largest contributor to good FE due to their high energy content.

Several test have been done proving that the energy of gasoline is being burnt during the power stroke and can be measure by the coolant temps and exhaust temps.

The video that was posted "lawnmower carb guy" this guy is a scam artist!!! Several people have called him out on his YouTube page, and he just deletes the them. His test was only 40 miles. He's just making YouTube $$$ on the idiots that have no clue and want to believe in his magic because the cost of fuel right now.

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