Got a new UFO*: 2000 Honda Insight 5-speed (ailing IMA hybrid battery pack)

[MetroMPG]

That's true. Never thought of it that way.

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I believe I have experienced a bug in the IMA software that Honda's engineers probably didn't think to plan or test for:

With the IMA battery switched OFF, the "auto stop" feature is disabled, as it should be.

Under normal conditions (IMA working), "auto stop" kills the engine (once warmed up, etc.) when braking or coasting below 19 km/h, provided the driver shifts into neutral. When shifting back into gear, the ICE spins up again via the 144v motor.

Makes sense that this shouldn't happen with IMA disabled: because there's no juice to spin up the ICE via the motor/generator, or feed 144v to the DC-DC converter to power the 12v accessories.

BUT...

I've noticed under specific circumstances the computer will kill the ICE despite the big hybrid switch being in the OFF position. If I manually key off when coming up to a stop or a turn, and then I clutch-start the engine before stopping, auto-stop will blink its dash light and cancel my clutch-start!

It's like that machine that guy built where you turn it on, and a hand comes out and turns itself off again.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ojhZaP5_JI

I have to either shift into gear to prevent the "stall", or I have to key start (12v starter) to get the engine running again.

Note that this only happens if I'm doing a key-off coast, and then a clutch-start below 19 km/h. If I leave the ICE running after first key-starting it, IMA will not auto-stop the engine.

[Piwoslaw]

Originally Posted by MetroMPG

Moral of the story: people assume small, weird looking cars are electric. Slap on some wheel skirts and a Kammback and presto, you've got an EV!

How true! But not only small cars: I've had people ask if my SW is electric, some when they see the Kamm & Skirt combo, others when they notice the plug under the hood. My answer is always: "Not yet!" That gets them thinking.

As has been mentioned here before, I see absolutely no reason why normal production cars should be deprived of the aeromods that electrics and hybrids recieve.

[MetroMPG]

Agreed!

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General update... I'm really getting a kick out of this car. My family rents a cottage each summer for a few weeks, and it's about 35 km away. So I've been driving more than usual lately, getting seat time in the U.F.O. It's fun to just cruise along the country roads, driving with load (DWL) and feathering the throttle to hold lean burn as much as possible.

I have the dashboard units set to Miles/Gals because the instant fuel consumption display has more resolution than L/100 km, especially when you're playing with 100 mpg as a cruising target. Better feedback.

I'm driving slightly faster than I would in the Flea, and still seeing ~15-20% better fuel economy on the dash display. (Anyone care to comment on how optimistic that display is vs. actual fill calculations -- I'm assuming it's probably optimistic).

I stuck a bottle of fuel injector cleaner in the tank today (hope I do not now find out it's bad for something...).

Minor gripes with the car:

• the auto-stop "bug" mentioned a few posts back
• no door map pockets (think I've heard jamesqf mention this before)
• the seat-back release for both seats is inboard. Dumb! Why do they want us to have to lean way inside the car to flip the seat-back?
• lousy radio reception
• there is still sometimes a 2 second delay between turning the key to "start" before the computer will fire the 12v starter (you have to turn the key and wait). I haven't figured out a pattern for when/why this happens, vs. when it spins up nearly as soon as the key is turned).

[MetroMPG]

One other bit of news:

I went to inspect the spark plugs, but the 10 mm bolts holding on the 3 coil packs (which must be removed to access the plugs) are corroded to the point of no longer resembling bolt heads.

Need to get one of those stripped bolt removal sockets...

[jamesqf]

Originally Posted by MetroMPG

I'm driving slightly faster than I would in the Flea, and still seeing ~15-20% better fuel economy on the dash display. (Anyone care to comment on how optimistic that display is vs. actual fill calculations -- I'm assuming it's probably optimistic).

It seems pretty close on mine. I checked it for a few tanks when I first got it, and it was close enough that I couldn't tell whether differences were the gauge or not filling the tank exactly the same.

lousy radio reception

Radio? Do they still have that?

there is still sometimes a 2 second delay between turning the key to "start" before the computer will fire the 12v starter (you have to turn the key and wait).

Sometimes with mine the no-start is just not having the clutch pedal all the way down. Especially if you have a floor mat, mine (which came with the car, but might not have been OEM) would sometimes slide under and block it.

[MetroMPG]

Good idea about the clutch switch. No floor mats in this car, but I'll wiggle the pedal next time I see the delayed response to the key.

Good news about the dash fuel economy display too, if mine's as accurate. I'm only at the 1/2 mark on this tank, so won't know for sure for another week or two.

1/2 mark = 777 km so far = ~1550 km on this tank, or nearly 1k miles. (Assuming the gauge on the 40L / 10.6 US gal. tank is reasonably accurate.)

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Dead Insight = Ecomodder recommended pick

I mentioned this in war wagon's thread about his Insight's forced battery recalibration...

I'm only on my first tank of fuel, but I would recommend to any ecomodding-type of person to buy an Insight with a dead pack, and not even worry about replacing/refurbishing it if you don't want to - provided you're willing to modify your driving to mimic the hybrid functions. That would mean frequent manual "autostop" (EOC) in city driving, and carefully modulating load to maintain & maximize lean burn operation in highway driving.

You can use the car as a non-hybrid (as long as the DC-DC converter works to keep the 12v system happy) and still achieve stellar fuel economy.

I actually see no real reason to refurbish my pack and bring IMA back online, aside from sheer curiosity about the project itself, and also getting to play with the hybrid functionality. (Though I still plan to do it at some point.)

[CigaR007]

Originally Posted by MetroMPG

I'm only on my first tank of fuel, but I would recommend to any ecomodding-type of person to buy an Insight with a dead pack, and not even worry about replacing/refurbishing it if you don't want to.

Is the battery pack heavy ? If the IMA is not being used, removing the battery pack would provide a considerable weight reduction. No ? Unless it would drastically affect the weight distribution on the Insight.

[Nevyn]

The delay in starting is probably the ECU going "Start with IMA Battery?" --No IMA battery found. "Start with conventional starter?" --Conventional starter found. "Commence starting sequence with conventional starter." --Commencing...

The spark plugs are a DEALER ONLY part. They're labeled A,B,C for each cylinder and are indexed to point the right direction for optimum burn/spark efficiency. ~$9 US each, IIRC.

[Daox]

Originally Posted by CigaR007

Is the battery pack heavy ? If the IMA is not being used, removing the battery pack would provide a considerable weight reduction. No ? Unless it would drastically affect the weight distribution on the Insight.

No, not really. I think the entire IMA system in the Insight weighs less than around 150lbs. Thats the motor and batteries and everything.

[MetroMPG]

Originally Posted by CigaR007

Is the battery pack heavy ? If the IMA is not being used, removing the battery pack would provide a considerable weight reduction. No ?

Battery = 48 lbs / 22 kg - InsightCentral.net - Encyclopedia - Honda Insight Battery Module

As mentioned, it's integral to the car. I have read that you can remove the battery and still use the car, but a replacement piece of electronics is required. (They guy who refurb's packs will send you a piece to plug in after removing the pack, which lets you continue driving the car while you ship your pack to him for rebuilding.)

Originally Posted by Nevyn

The delay in starting is probably the ECU going "Start with IMA Battery?" --No IMA battery found. "Start with conventional starter?" --Conventional starter found. "Commence starting sequence with conventional starter." --Commencing...

That's definitely the impression I get.

I tried fiddling with the clutch pedal height several times when the delay happens, and it's not the clutch switch. The mystery is why the 12v starter spins nearly instantly sometimes, and other times there is this ~2 second delay. I haven't noticed any obvious pattern of conditions.