Has all retail turned into WalMart ( made in China )

[Cd]

Originally Posted by Cobb

Cd, is that a paint sprayer? Which would you rather see? Joe Smoe pay a contractor to paint a room, Joe being able to afford the pain sprayer and paint it himself?

How were things in the 1950s when a lot of items were made in the US ? Have things really improved ? Do people really have more money than they did back then ?
If enough Joe Smoes buy a paint sprayer and do it themselves, the paint contractor goes out of business.

As far as the distribution of wealth, it seems to me that eventhough part of the money saved by buying imported goods goes back into the US economy, most likely the items purchased with those savings go to buy more things made outside the US.

And about that distribution of wealth : In regards to giving the poor in other countries a job - correct me if i'm wrong, but i would imagine that only a few people in other countries benefit financially through the use of imports, but what about the larger majority that work there a@@es off for low wages ?
Are we really helping them by buying imports, or merely helping the top few become wealthier ?

Again, correct me if i am wrong ( i didn't research this stuff like you guys did ) but I'm sure you are familiar with the Wired article on Apple using slave labor to build its' products. Is it really a good thing to support that ?
These people ( the workers ) were suicidal and they had to put up netting on the roof to keep the suicides down.

Is buying the cheaper products really worth supporting that ?

I am tying this on an Apple computer. I bought it before i knew of the slave labor. I bought it thinking it had a higher 'green' score because of its' energy consumption.
I buy everything cheap ( except this damned overpriced Apple ) - so most likely stuff made overseas.

I'm a hypocrite, yes.

I still see a problem though, and i wish there was a solution.

[freebeard]

One solution would be to buy used. Mac Mini's hold their value really well.

The money stays in your neighborhood, and all the bad karma rubbed off on the previous owner. In this location the choices are Nextstep Recycling, Mactonic and the Goodwill Used Computer Store.

[jamesqf]

Originally Posted by Cd

How were things in the 1950s when a lot of items were made in the US ? Have things really improved ? Do people really have more money than they did back then?

Apart from the philosophical question of whether having more money really improves quality of life (and there's research saying that beyond a certain point - about $70K IIRC) it really doesn't), I think it's pretty darned obvious that people in general really do have more money (and/or material goods) these days.

But the "Made In USA" thing is really sidestepping the issue. First, there's the Harbor Freight thing: US companies easily could have made all that stuff (pre-China) and sold it to average Joes, but they chose not to. Second, the main reason that a lot of this stuff is made in China (or other 3rd/4th world places) is that Chinese are cheaper than robots.

If enough Joe Smoes buy a paint sprayer and do it themselves, the paint contractor goes out of business.

No, because the people disposed to hire painting contractors would do so anyway. It's Joe with the sprayer doing his painting faster than he would with brushes & rollers. As for instance my Harbor Freight engine crane: did not having one ever stop me from pulling an engine when I wanted to, or make me take the job to a mechanic? No, it just saves me from finding a shade tree or roof beam stout enough to bear the load - if I guessed right :-)

Again, correct me if i am wrong ( i didn't research this stuff like you guys did ) but I'm sure you are familiar with the Wired article on Apple using slave labor to build its' products.

I don't think Wired has the slightest idea what slave labor really is.

[user removed]

The heat-ac blower motor in the sentra is a replacement, Seimens marked as well as made in China, much noisier than the original even though the housing is spotless (cleaned by me preventatively). Last night I turned the switch to high speed and it blew the fuse. I've already replaced the blower fan speed switch and found the high setting
had overheated and melted the plastic housing.

It's my belief that the cheap chinese made motor caused a chain reaction of overloaded and therefore failed components that probably would have never failed otherwise. I see this as a significant factor in the numebr of future repairs that may not have been necessary had there placement parts been of better quality.

My advice to all of you is to check the OE price of parts before buying the cheapest, especially those parts that require a considerable amount of labor to replace. The consequences of a single poor quality part causing a catastrophic failure, like a melted wiring harness after overamping a fuse to keep the defective blower motor working, could cost you a car.

In Virginia you would have no legal remedy against the seller of said part other than replacement. I got tired of replacing the chinese blower motor resistor in the Ranger, bet a factory Ford part would have lasted more than 3 months regardless of the lifetime warranty on the chinese part.

Man I would hate to do an 8 hour heater core replacement and have that new core fail then next day, then they cheerfully hand me the exact same warranty part.

Bought a cheap harbor freight hydraulic floor jack that worked maybe 15 times then blew a seal. Another electric grinder that failed running and you could not turn it off except by unplugging it! They asked me when I returned it what was wrong with it?
Told them you could not turn it off, unless you pulled the plug. Gave me another one and it has worked fine for several hours.

regards
mech

[niky]

Originally Posted by Cd

Again, correct me if i am wrong ( i didn't research this stuff like you guys did ) but I'm sure you are familiar with the Wired article on Apple using slave labor to build its' products. Is it really a good thing to support that ?

Chicken or egg. Did Monsato cause farmer suicides in India? Nope. Those farmers were already killing themselves before Monsato. Unfortunately, Monsato's involvement didn't really help any, so they're still killing themselves.

-

Do those companies giving out low wages for long working hours cause their workers to be financially stressed and suicidal? No. Those workers were poor before getting a factory job. They're grossly underpaid by our standards, but they're richer than they were before.

"Slave labor" is unpaid labor, from which you cannot escape. Tens of thousands of workers voluntarily sign on to this "slave labor" because it pays better than their alternatives.

In Apple's case, at least they're honest enough to admit there was a problem that needs rectifying. Now think about the hundreds (thousands?) of other companies producing stuff in China who don't give a flying fig?

-

In the end, it may not matter. You pump so much money into the local economy, and you raise the standards and cost of living... which means either you pay the workers more or they go to someone who does... otherwise they can't survive.

These sweatshops may look dire to western eyes, but they're funding an economic revolution that is uplifting the entire population.

And once they're comfortably middle class... the jobs will go elsewhere.

[jamesqf]

Originally Posted by Old Tele man

HARBOR FREIGHT = *hardware* version of Wally-World.

Yes, that's exactly my point :-) I, as a typical do-it-yourselfer, don't need (and for most of my life couldn't afford, even if I could find where to buy most of them) a shop-quality engine hoist, floor jack, drill press, &c that I can use day after day for years, because I might use any individual tool a few times a year, or maybe not for several years.

Just as - to carry the WalMart analogy a bit further - I don't need clothes with designer labels and prices to match, or shoes with a 'swoosh' on the side. Not that I buy much there myself, as I tend to get most of my clothes from REI & similar places, but the principle's the same. And I think you'll find that much of the expensive brand-name stuff is made in China too, like as not in the same factories.

[freebeard]

Originally Posted by niky

These sweatshops may look dire to western eyes, but they're funding an economic revolution that is uplifting the entire population.

And once they're comfortably middle class... the jobs will go elsewhere.

Thanks for posting that.

In other news of improvements, both China and India underwent annual economic growth averaging around 10% per year throughout the decade. The sheer scale of it is mind-numbing; it's as if the entire population of the USA and the EU combined had gone from third-world poverty to first-world standards of living. (There are still a lot of dirt-poor peasants left behind in villages, and a lot of economic — never mind political — problems with both India and China's developed urban sectors, but overall, life is vastly better today than it was a decade ago for around a billion people.)

The number of people living in poverty and with unsafe water supplies world-wide today is about the same as it was in 1970. Only difference is, there were 3 billion of us back then and today we're nearer to 7 billion. Upshot: the proportion of us humans on this planet who are living in third world poverty (unable to afford enough food, water, clothing and shelter) has actually been halved.

http://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/2010/12/reasons-to-be-cheerful.html

[basjoos]

Originally Posted by niky

Considering China is well on its way to becoming the richest country in the world, I think that would make us second world (out here in what used to be the "third world")... about level with the US of A.

.

The original designation of "worlds"

1st world - developed capitalist countries
2nd world - developed communist (socialist) countries
3rd world - undeveloped countries no matter what form their government is.

[gone-ot]

Originally Posted by basjoos

The original designation of "worlds"

1st world - developed capitalist countries
2nd world - developed communist (socialist) countries
3rd world - undeveloped countries no matter what form their government is.

I thought it was a binary characterization: THEM vs. US.

[rmay635703]

Originally Posted by freebeard

The limiting case would be designed in the USA and totally manufactured off-shore.

David Brin makes the case that the transfer of manufacturing to China has lifted vast numbers of people out of poverty. They should thank us.

Thank you, now I am not in poverty