HID bulbs in Halogen lamps fail govt test

[RedDevil]

Originally Posted by Baltothewolf

I think you misunderstood my post. I was only pertaining to the people who have horrible, HORRIBLE aligned HID's. Ever since my mom totaled our van because she got blinded by an idiot with mis-aligned HID's I have resented people who don't do it right with a passion. I see properly aligned HID's all the time and I don't complain because it does look nice when it's done properly.

I understand, but keep in mind that only one of those was responsible for your mother's accident. Please do not cause an accident to someone else, no matter how annoying they might be.

My driving instructor taught me to look away from blinding lights.
Focus at a point slightly aside the road, and choose a new one when that draws near until the car that blinds you passes.
That way you do not blind the center of your eyes and as your eyes keep shifting the lights will move over your retina instead of stationary on one spot, so that will recover quicker.
You will still be able to see the road in your peripheral vision.

[wdb]

Originally Posted by mcrews

I ran the hir bulb in the Infniti Q45 high beam.(low beam was factory hid) the hir is considered to be a direct designed replacement.
That's why I had to search and see about the tip.
If I remember the issue w/ the hir was much shorter life span. There also may have been some quality issues. It is a very good bulb for high beams.

I've had HIR bulbs in my Subie for 8 years. The same bulbs the entire time. I also had them in other cars over the years. I never had an HIR bulb burn out. If you ask me, lifespan is not an issue with HIRs.

They're also not good for energy reduction, because the the wattage is the same as the equivalent halogen. But the additional light output is considerable, and a tremendous asset for those of us who do a lot of driving on rural roads after dark.

Originally Posted by RedDevil

My driving instructor taught me to look away from blinding lights.
Focus at a point slightly aside the road, and choose a new one when that draws near until the car that blinds you passes.

That is excellent advice, and it works even if the other driver has high beams blaring away. I used that technique very effectively during my ultradistance cycling days. We had headlights on the bikes but they were nowhere near as bright as car headlights, so it was important to avoid being 'night blinded' by oncoming cars.

[mcrews]

Originally Posted by RedDevil

That's bad.

I have an aftermarket HID kit in my car. It has been tested and properly aligned by my Honda dealer. And nobody has flashed their lights at me so far, in over 10.000 km of use.

Because I knew what I did and why, and made sure it worked.

First of all, my car has projector lenses. I bet they use the same lenses whether you get them with OEM HIDs or not.

....bet not......

Originally Posted by RedDevil

I had halogens and they produced very little stray light, to the extent that other road users seemed to overlook me at night. One lady almost slammed her car into me, driving along a long line of slow moving traffic and apparently my car was the 'hole' in the line!

I chose the color carefully; 5000K which appears plain white.
When I got the HID kit I carefully measured the position of the electrodes (they were at the exact same position as the middle part of the filament of my halogens) and when I fitted them I made sure they were positioned right, though my Honda dealer readjusted thenm all the same afterwards.

I am very happy with my HID kit and although I see a lot of badly aligned HIDs around, I am pretty certain that mine is not among them.

I appreciate all the work you went thru.....
But if you'll look at the govmt fail chart, you'll see that the HID build produces 10 times more light......causing the fail.
Granted, the hid bulb was tested in a halogen lamp.....but that doesn't change the properties of the hid bulb. The fact is the hid bulb creates an entirely different and much brighter light.

Does using a halogen designed projector 'help' reduce some glare....yes....but that doesn't make it correct.
IF the same projector is used, how is the extra light compensated?
DO you really believe that Honda would sell a car with inadequate lighting (illegal, below govt standards) ? Just to save money on a bulb......?

also, I would also 'bet' that the local Honda dealer did not 'test' your set up.
dealer don't 'test' lights. they aim them using the chart I provided in the early post. They have no way to determine 'brightness'. Also, I 'bet' they would not install them. It's against the law. They aimed them for you.
big difference.
Again, thank you for being more diligent than 98% of those who by kits.

[mcrews]

Originally Posted by topcat

First off, I have an MSc in optics - but I don't work in auto headlight industry. While there are good and bad HID kits (I have had both), I have to take issue with quite a lot of the information on the Daniel Stern website. This makes me wonder that there may be some bias because of some vested interest of the author.

First off, I don't have a degree in optics but I can read charts and graphs

Originally Posted by topcat

Firstly and fundamentally, the diagram here comparing arc and filament:- http://dastern.torque.net/Photometry/filamentarc.jpg

Assuming the arc and the filament are the same or similar lengths, in the same position, on the same axis, then it seems to me that the arc shown will be a fine replacement for the filament (in a projector style headlamp). The 10,000 cd/cm2 bright spots on the ends of the arc are such a small volume of the rest of the 6,000 cd/cm2 arc they should not cause great concern.

You, personally, can discount it if you like, but the FACT (not 'it seems to me'), is that the HID is at least 10x brighter.
(see chart AGAIN)

Originally Posted by topcat

next, I quote from Daniel Stern: "This article will never go out of date, because the problems with HID kits are conceptual problems, not problems of implementation. Therefore, they cannot be overcome by additional research and development". I disagree with this also. I repeat, if the arc is the same dimensions as the filament in the same place as the filament, then in a "projector" style headlamp the arc will project in a similar way to the filament. Hell, the lumps and bumps in illumination in a modern filament headlight are still obvious, and the filament has all those gaps betwen the wires.

THE FACT that the HID is brighter cannot be disputed. Kinda like the laws of physics or gravity. That is what Stern is referring to. FACTS, LAWS of SCIENCE. (surely you can refer to some course work in your degree that validates your 'feelings'?
"being in the 'same place' does not overcome the significant brightness that is NOT in the halogen bulb.

Originally Posted by topcat

Also, I quote: "Probably the biggest issue is HID headlamps' significantly worse color rendering index (CRI), which is in the high-60s to low-70s range. Halogen headlamps' CRI tends to be around 90 to 97 or so."
That 60-70 CRI doesn't fit with the info I can find. HID, being an arc lamp, can give a much flatter spectrum of illumination than a filament. From wikipedia: "The output of a pure xenon short-arc lamp offers fairly continuous spectral power distribution with a color temperature of about 6200K and color rendering index close to 100." EDIT: Turns out automotive HID uses metal halide arc lamps which have a more spiky spectrum- so the CRI could be worse.

Originally Posted by topcat

I would add that my own experience of a cheap HID kit shows that there are some bad kits out there, and it's not as easy to get it right as the vendors would have you believe. The most important thing is that HID conversion should be done in a projector style lamp, not a reflector style, because the metalised end of the filament contributes to the shutoff in a reflector lamp. But there's no fundamental reason (I can see) which would stop an arc replacing a filament in a projector lamp, if an arc of the same size is situated where the filament would have been (and on the same axis as the filament).

So in the last paragraph, you say "IF" the arc is the same as the halogen"

SO help me with some book learning because the FACT is:
Halogen and HID are two different bulbs.

Let me pose this thought:
If all the bad light and glare that is FACTUALLY proven in the HID in halogen lamps really exists(at least 10x brighter causing the fail)
Where does all that excessive light go in a halogen projector lamp?
As Stern so clearly stated the problem begins BEFORE all of your 'ifs'.

Finally, a halogen projector lamp does not have a shield for a cut off. How do you provide the required by law cut off when an hid bulb is in a halogen projector?

[topcat]

You say:-
"You, personally, can discount it if you like, but the FACT (not 'it seems to me'), is that the HID is at least 10x brighter."

No it's not. It's 10x brighter at 2 tiny spots. On average it's 3x brighter. That's why people want to use them! The bulk of the arc is 6000 cd/mm2 compared with the 2000cd/mm2 tungsten filament. My own halogen projectors are terrible with a standard halogen lamp fitted. With a +90% halogen bulb (e.g. Osram nightbreaker) fitted they are a lot better. With hid bulbs they are better still, and just about bright enough.

You also say:
"Finally, a halogen projector lamp does not have a shield for a cut off."
Yes it does. Projectors lamps do have a shield. And that's why it doesn't matter that 2 tiny portions of the arc are 10x brighter because those bits won't make it out into the eyes of the oncoming traffic because of the shield.

Reflector lamp housings do not have a shield, and it's generally recognized that hid in reflectors is a bad thing because of that.

[RedDevil]

Originally Posted by mcrews

....bet not......
...
I appreciate all the work you went thru..... But ... (etc)

What can I say. The 35W HIDs I use produce about 3.5 times as much light (so not 10 times) as the 55W halogens they replaced, not 10 times. The projector lenses look identical on the Honda OEM HID lamps. Stray light with the halogens is way less than on other cars that use halogens in reflector housings. I stand by my words.

My projectors do not have excessively bright spots either, not with the HIDs at least. It is pretty much homogenous within the -2 to -5 degrees down and several degrees sideways area, and cuts off quite sharply outside that area.

The distance between the electrodes is less than the halogens filament length and corresponds quite well with the brightest area of that filament.
If anything, the light producing area is even better confined. Which can be a problem with badly shaped reflectors. I would not be surprised if that's the cause of the fail, apart from ignoring bad alignment; The HID's lighting area is too small, not too big!
In my projector lenses that does not cause a problem though.

My garage has some automated measuring tool for adjusting lights which signals whether the light be raised or lowered and directed right or left. I do not know the details about it, but I assume it does base its adjustments on light intensity.

AFAIK aftermarket HIDs are legal in Holland, as long as they don't produce too much stray light, but that's pretty arbitrary.
There is some conformity or neutrality principle though, nobody can charge you for the lights if other road users with worse lighting get by without tickets.

Originally Posted by mcrews

THE FACT that the HID is brighter cannot be disputed.

Tonight my wife asked me to fill up her car.
It was scary. Rain, badly lit streets, misbehaving mopeds, a bicylist with no lights and a pedestrian in all black clothing, and then just a pair of orangy halogens to light it all up. I saw them all in time - just.
She took the car later this night and complained about her lights too.

HIDs are brighter, thank God. Imho a pair of halogens is just not bright enough to drive safely around town in these conditions.

[mcrews]

[IMG][/IMG]

Ok, I posted facts.
See close up of Failed HID in a halogen lamp.
PLEASE look at the hand written numbers....PLEASE do your own math......
Look, IF you are right and there is NOT 10x more light from a regular HID bulb, but only 3 times, then the halogen lamp is able to MULTIPLE light! REALLY?????
Bt just to humor you....the 3x light is a fail. Period.

And if the shield on the halogen projector cuts off the 3x light.....then why use the HID?

Look up and do some research. VERY FEW companies have the equipment to measure light. I actually spoke with the testing company that generated that chart. AND I CAN GUARENTEE you that your Honda dealer does not. PERIOD.

But the focus of the article is hid fail in halogen lamps.
The rest is just common sense.

[RedDevil]

Originally Posted by mcrews

[IMG]Ok, I posted facts.
See close up of Failed HID in a halogen lamp.
PLEASE look at the hand written numbers....PLEASE do your own math......
....
But the focus of the article is hid fail in halogen lamps.
The rest is just common sense.

OK, so let us look at those facts, from post 1.

This is a joke, right?
The alignment is out. You can clearly see that the point of highest intensity is aimed way too high in the second picture. It should have been aligned, but it wasn't.
Nothing good can come from testing like this.
Did the government do this? They should be ashamed.

[mcrews]

[QUOTE=mcrews;406226][IMG][/IMG]


THIS, the above blow up is the CHART I refered to!!!!!!

IT IS A CLOSE UP OF THE FULL CHART.

[mcrews]

Originally Posted by RedDevil

OK, so let us look at those facts, from post 1.

This is a joke, right?
The alignment is out. You can clearly see that the point of highest intensity is aimed way too high in the second picture. It should have been aligned, but it wasn't.
Nothing good can come from testing like this.
Did the government do this? They should be ashamed.

************************************************
edit: here is what you are missing or don't seem to understand.
1. the test is a low beam test.
2. the correct halogen bulb probably has a cover on the tip.
3. ALL hid bulbs require a metal shield to provide a cutoff
4. the hid bulb that was installed is being sold as a direct replacement of the low beam halogen.
5. NOTHING is being un-aligned by the tester.
****************************************
Tell you what, you call CALCOAST-ITL and talk to them.
Gosh, I did and am smarter for it.

THe top picture(passed) is the halogen bulb in the halogen lamp.
The second picture is the HID kit installed in the halogen lamp. INSTALLED AS ANY CONSUMER WOULD INSTALL IT. THe base of the bulb in the proper spot. NOT JURY RIGGERD!!!!

It's a government approved testing procedure.....you know, like the procedures that put a man on the moon....
It is the same standard test that ALL MANUFACTURERS HAVE to go thru.

SO by your standard, each manufacturer gets to come and jiggle their bulbs.....

Maybe you just don't get it..... I don't know. But the only 'aligning' is of the lamp, using the alignment bolts provided by the manufacturer on the car.

Finally, when you look at an HID bulb there are two FACTS:
1. there are two hotspots
2. there is an arch
Tell me, how do you compensate, or align for those two FACTS when a halogen is a straight single hotspot?