Hoover dam as giant battery

[oil pan 4]

My base rate is like $0.07 or 8.
Enjoy buying TX and NM energy for about 2 or 3 cents a kwh then paying over 20 cents for it.
I'm pretty sure California's renewable energy thing is a scam.

They can do 100% renewable by 2040 if they charge $1 per kwh.
That should be interesting.

And that in a nut she'll is how the people of California are getting screwed on energy.

[jamesqf]

Originally Posted by ksa8907

Maybe I'm missing something, regardless of what state of is in, if there is excess renewable power isn't it a good idea to maximize its use? Even if its inefficient to send the power, store it, and then generate it again as hydro, unless the loss was huge I would think it is overall beneficial.

Indeed, it's been done for decades, with the Pacific DC intertie https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacific_DC_Intertie shipping excess power from the Columbia River hydro (and these days, wind) to Southern California - and sometimes the other way, depending on seasonal demand.

WRT California building local power plants, where? Pretty much every significant hydro location is already used. Local wind & solar have the same use time issues. Fossil fuels? You pretty much have to ship in the fuel, which has its own costs. And with nuclear, you spend $1 billion on the plant, and $10 billion on the lawsuits from every anti-nuclear group under the sun.

[freebeard]

Meanwhile, the tides roll in and out...

[redpoint5]

Originally Posted by jamesqf

WRT California building local power plants, where? Pretty much every significant hydro location is already used. Local wind & solar have the same use time issues. Fossil fuels? You pretty much have to ship in the fuel, which has its own costs. And with nuclear, you spend $1 billion on the plant, and $10 billion on the lawsuits from every anti-nuclear group under the sun.

Death Valley isn't being used for much.

CA residents deserve the rates they get, as they are responsible for electing people that represent their interests. If their interest is high cost renewable, that's what they get.

I actually want the Hoover dam battery plan to go through so I can see how the experiment plays out at others expense.

My numbers for payback assumed they can get renewable energy for free. Any cost for electricity above nothing will greatly extend out the amount of kwh of Hoover stored water required to break even with the expense to build it. Basically, the cost to purchase TX sun power plus the cost of storing that energy in the Hoover dam must be lower than the cost to just generate the power, or at least less than the current utility rate to customers, or it will cause an increase in utility rates.

I'm saying there is almost no way the project can be done without increasing the already extremely high CA utility rates. Someone has to have the highest utility rates, and Hawaii has held that title for too long.

[roosterk0031]

Energy Return on Energy Invested per energy source.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesco.../#7134d085a027

Nuclear wins at 75x

Solar PV with hydro energy storage loses at 2x, 4x without storage.

Per the author US needs 7x to be sustainable.

[oil pan 4]

Nuclear for the base load and wind and solar for the peak day time loads.
Problem solved.

[freebeard]

Originally Posted by redpoint5

Death Valley isn't being used for much.

That's one of my favorites. Have Elon Musk bore some 32ft diameter aqueducts below sea level from the Pacific to Death Valley. Inline turbines in the flow, an OTEC plant to harvest energy from the temperature difference at the exit, and then algae farms and desalination. (Just like a pig, everything buy the squeal)

[Piotrsko]

Actually salton sea is lower and closer

[California98Civic]

Originally Posted by roosterk0031

Energy Return on Energy Invested per energy source.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesco.../#7134d085a027

Nuclear wins at 75x

Solar PV with hydro energy storage loses at 2x, 4x without storage.

Per the author US needs 7x to be sustainable.

I am not sure that Forbes piece is accurate. Page 28 and 29 of the 2013 study it cites for the graph show significantly more varied and different results: http://festkoerper-kernphysik.de/Wei...I_preprint.pdf

[redpoint5]

Originally Posted by freebeard

That's one of my favorites. Have Elon Musk bore some 32ft diameter aqueducts below sea level from the Pacific to Death Valley. Inline turbines in the flow, an OTEC plant to harvest energy from the temperature difference at the exit, and then algae farms and desalination. (Just like a pig, everything buy the squeal)

Just the advancing and retreating tide level alone could produce massive power, couldn't it?

Perhaps the added surface water will reflect more of the sun's rays, and act as a buffer against extreme heat and cold (heat capacity).