How to build a muscle car for better fuel economy?

[JSH]

Originally Posted by Frank Lee

Then the legality of lack of isn't all that.

That is up to each individual. However, the OP expressed the desire to make legal modifications. I though he might want to know what is and is not legal.

The stakes are also a bit higher for emission violations than traffic infractions. The fine for illegally modifying a vehicle is $10,000 per violation. The risk of an individual getting caught is tiny as the Feds don't enforce the clean air act at an individual level and States don't enforce Federal laws.

[Phoenix'97]

Originally Posted by JSH

Everything you plan to do is illegal under federal law and has been since the Clean Air Act passed in 1973. The Clean Air Act made it illegal to modify your car in any way that changes the emissions. That rules out all engine modifications. If it isn't factory spec it is illegal unless the tuning company has tested and certified that the car still meets emission standards after the new parts are installed. OEMs and large tuning companies like Hennessey and Roush offer legal modification packages. The last time I had a product certified the testing was $250,000 so you can see why most companies just sell parts that are illegal for road use and pretend the are for "Competition Use Only".

Now that New York has adopted CARB the emissions requirements in NY are identical to those in CA. However, they are not retroactive and your 1997 car is only required to meet 1997 standards.

Running Iso-Butanol is your car it illegal. Not just because you plan to dodge road taxes but also because your car has not been certified to use that fuel. You can only legally use fuels that your car has been tested and certified to use. In your case that is gasoline and ethanol blends up to E10.

Yes, Ethanol is taxed. The subsidies are for corn production and ethanol production and go to those producers. It is taxed the same as gasoline at point of use.

If you truly want to reduce emissions you need to park the Firebird and start driving a modern car with current emission controls at least for the majority of your miles. Even if your car was like new running perfectly, your car is producing much more pollution than a modern car. Car have become MUCH cleaner in the past 20 years.

Originally Posted by JSH

That is up to each individual. However, the OP expressed the desire to make legal modifications. I though he might want to know what is and is not legal.

The stakes are also a bit higher for emission violations than traffic infractions. The fine for illegally modifying a vehicle is $10,000 per violation. The risk of an individual getting caught is tiny as the Feds don't enforce the clean air act at an individual level and States don't enforce Federal laws.

Now I am going to start getting testy.

Well, there are cars being driven around in New York that run on recycled restaurant cooking oil or some bio-diesel. These vehicles clearly are not certified to run on this fuel source but they do. Some cars have been converted to propane or maybe even compressed natural gas. These cars CERTAINLY did not come from the factory this way but they are driving around! Why the hell should anyone ***** about me using Iso-Butanol when the fuel is much cleaner to burn than gasoline and I can have my car properly tuned for proper air-fuel ratio and to meet emissions standards, which the Engine builder/tuner also performs!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoichiometry

Then of course if New York state is encouraging drivers to drive green with better cars or alternative fuel sources, why the hell would they give me a hard time about "illegally" modifying my car to be GREEN?! The contradictory b.s.!

https://www.dmv.org/ny-new-york/gree...incentives.php

[JSH]

Originally Posted by Phoenix'97

Now I am going to start getting testy.

Well, there are cars being driven around in New York that run on recycled restaurant cooking oil or some bio-diesel. These vehicles clearly are not certified to run on this fuel source but they do. Some cars have been converted to propane or maybe even compressed natural gas. These cars CERTAINLY did not come from the factory this way but they are driving around! Why the hell should anyone ***** about me using Iso-Butanol when the fuel is much cleaner to burn than gasoline and I can have my car properly tuned for proper air-fuel ratio and to meet emissions standards, which the Engine builder/tuner also performs!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoichiometry

Then of course if New York state is encouraging drivers to drive green with better cars or alternative fuel sources, why the hell would they give me a hard time about "illegally" modifying my car to be GREEN?! The contradictory b.s.!

https://www.dmv.org/ny-new-york/gree...incentives.php

There are EPA certified and legal conversion kits to run vehicles on propane, natural gas, and E85. (There are also many illegal kits.) There are strict laws governing the manufacture of biodiesel to a standard of quality that makes it work in diesel engines. Straight vegetable oil is not legal.

Your local engine turner cannot tune your car to meet emission standards on iso-butanol or any other fuel. He simply does not have the equipment to accurately measure vehicle emissions and certify that the vehicle meets EPA standards. That is unless your local turner is a EPA / CARB certified emission lab.

Your link has nothing about NY encouraging people to modifying their old cars. They are encouraging people to buy new cars that use less fuel and use commercially produced and tested biofuels.

[freebeard]

theanarchistlibrary.org:Are You An Anarchist? The Answer May Surprise You!

[Phoenix'97]

Originally Posted by JSH

There are EPA certified and legal conversion kits to run vehicles on propane, natural gas, and E85. (There are also many illegal kits.) There are strict laws governing the manufacture of biodiesel to a standard of quality that makes it work in diesel engines. Straight vegetable oil is not legal.

Your local engine turner cannot tune your car to meet emission standards on iso-butanol or any other fuel. He simply does not have the equipment to accurately measure vehicle emissions and certify that the vehicle meets EPA standards. That is unless your local turner is a EPA / CARB certified emission lab.

Your link has nothing about NY encouraging people to modifying their old cars. They are encouraging people to buy new cars that use less fuel and use commercially produced and tested biofuels.

If you can tune an engine for pure Ethanol then you can tune an engine for pure Butanol. It is a laughable joke to say you can't tune for one when both are alcohol fuels.

IF you look at the link for the NYS DMV, THEY ARE ENCOURAGING CONVERSIONS, age of the car does not matter! An eco-friendly car is an eco-friendly car!

So why are we arguing over difference?

[JSH]

Originally Posted by Phoenix'97

If you can tune an engine for pure Ethanol then you can tune an engine for pure Butanol. It is a laughable joke to say you can't tune for one when both are alcohol fuels.

IF you look at the link for the NYS DMV, THEY ARE ENCOURAGING CONVERSIONS, age of the car does not matter! An eco-friendly car is an eco-friendly car!

So why are we arguing over difference?

How will your shop measure emissions from your car and verify that it meets EPA specifications? How do you know the changes you make are "eco-friendly"?

The only retrofits I see is the NY Truck Voucher incentive program. That is open to class 3-8 trucks and requires the use of an approved (and EPA certified) conversion company.

[AusKiwi]

If all you're interested in is fuel economy, then why not try to shoehorn in a GM diesel V8 truck engine with the tallest rear end you can get. You'll be able to cruise around with the engine ticking over at 1500rpm and probably get 25 MPG. Personally, I'm not into muscle cars, I have a Citroen C5 2.0 HDi turbodiesel and get 40-50 mpg (sorry not available in the US due to some weird law), and also enjoy the benefits of the self-levelling Hydractive suspension system. This is a 5 seater car with plenty of power for highway cruising, but sorry it won't do 0-60 in 3 seconds. I'm happy with just cruising around in style and comfort, that's the price you pay for fuel economy, not being able to blow off the Camaros and Mustangs at the lights.

[Hersbird]

Originally Posted by JSH

That is up to each individual. However, the OP expressed the desire to make legal modifications. I though he might want to know what is and is not legal.

The stakes are also a bit higher for emission violations than traffic infractions. The fine for illegally modifying a vehicle is $10,000 per violation. The risk of an individual getting caught is tiny as the Feds don't enforce the clean air act at an individual level and States don't enforce Federal laws.

Do they not enforce at the individual level because they can't or won't? I would argue they maybe can't. They can require manufacturers of things to do stuff but they have very little ground to go after what Joe does to Joe's stuff. The state has all the power to make and enforce such laws but the feds will run into resistance and constitutional issues when they start. Just scanning the criminal enforcement part of the CAA I don't see anything about an individual being subject to penalties in modifications they make to their own vehicle. I could be missing it. Even if it is in there has it ever been enforced and then challenged in court and upheld?
Either way you are screwed because you live in New York and they probably will fine a fart.

[JSH]

Originally Posted by Hersbird

Do they not enforce at the individual level because they can't or won't? I would argue they maybe can't. They can require manufacturers of things to do stuff but they have very little ground to go after what Joe does to Joe's stuff. The state has all the power to make and enforce such laws but the feds will run into resistance and constitutional issues when they start. Just scanning the criminal enforcement part of the CAA I don't see anything about an individual being subject to penalties in modifications they make to their own vehicle. I could be missing it. Even if it is in there has it ever been enforced and then challenged in court and upheld?
Either way you are screwed because you live in New York and they probably will fine a fart.

The law clearly states the feds can go after an OEM, dealer, or individual.


US Code 7522

(3)(A) for any person to remove or render inoperative any device or element of design installed on or in a motor vehicle or motor vehicle engine in compliance with regulations under this subchapter prior to its sale and delivery to the ultimate purchaser, or for any person knowingly to remove or render inoperative any such device or element of design after such sale and delivery to the ultimate purchaser; or

(B) for any person to manufacture or sell, or offer to sell, or install, any part or component intended for use with, or as part of, any motor vehicle or motor vehicle engine, where a principal effect of the part or component is to bypass, defeat, or render inoperative any device or element of design installed on or in a motor vehicle or motor vehicle engine in compliance with regulations under this subchapter, and where the person knows or should know that such part or component is being offered for sale or installed for such use or put to such use

§7524. Civil penalties

(a) Violations

Any person who violates sections 1 7522(a)(1), 7522(a)(4), or 7522(a)(5) of this title or any manufacturer or dealer who violates section 7522(a)(3)(A) of this title shall be subject to a civil penalty of not more than $25,000. Any person other than a manufacturer or dealer who violates section 7522(a)(3)(A) of this title or any person who violates section 7522(a)(3)(B) of this title shall be subject to a civil penalty of not more than $2,500. Any such violation with respect to paragraph (1), (3)(A), or (4) of section 7522(a) of this title shall constitute a separate offense with respect to each motor vehicle or motor vehicle engine. Any such violation with respect to section 7522(a)(3)(B) of this title shall constitute a separate offense with respect to each part or component.

So up to $25,000 per offence for a OEM or Dealer and up to $2,500 per offence for a individual. Each part installed is a separate offence.


I don't know of any individual charged for simply installing a part. Enforcement tends to be focused on OEMs, import companies, and dealers. For example, Harley Davidson was fined $12 million for knowingly allowing dealers to install off-road only Screaming Eagle tuners before a bike was even sold. Jesse James was fined about $250K for illegally modifying bikes in his custom shop.

Enforcement at the individual level is harder as the feds don't have people checking personal cars. It is the State DMVs that does that in some states. They don't fine violators they just don't renew the registration. Also the state level emission inspections aren't designed to measure actual emission levels. They just check the OBDII computer to see if it is reporting tampering or fault codes and use primitive emissions equipment to fail gross polluters.

Not too long ago the State of California considered a bill to ticket motorcyclists for fitting illegal aftermarket exhausts. The test was simple, exhausts are either stamped DOT approved or "Competition Use Only". A police office could visually check for the stamp and ticket violators. The American Motorcycle Association and SEMA lobbied heavily against it and managed to defeat the bill. They both knew that the vast majority of aftermarket exhausts sold are installed on road bikes not race bikes.

[freebeard]

Once they include RFID chips [that can stand the heat] on all the aftermarket parts; they can sit at the roadside and scan the passing vehicles.

Oh wait, the autonomous cop car will take their jobs.

jalopnik.com:Ford Has An Idea For An Autonomous Police Car That Could Find A Hiding Spot

BTW; muscle car? Kathy Mattea 455 Rocket

Mr. Smith had an oldsmobile
Baby blue with them wire wheels
I took her home the day that she was adverstised

He said she leaked when, it would rain
And sounded like an aeroplane
But I knew she was a jewel in disguise

She had a 455 Rocket
The biggest block alive
I couldn't hardly wait just to take my turn

She was made for the straight aways
She grew up hating Chevrolets
She's a Rocket, she was made to burn