How to build a muscle car for better fuel economy?

[BLSTIC]

Actually there is *one* option. Here in 'Straya we had an LS-1 AWD dual cab ute. A ute which was based off a sedan. So there are front differential units that fit under/through chev v8's and connect to kinda-road-car front suspension.

Find the US equivalent of that, and FWD suspension with similar enough geometry to your Firebird, and you'll have a spot you can attach electric front drive on your muscle car.

But unless you're the kind of person who thinks that putting an entire awd skyline gt-r driveline into a P510 sounds similar to work you've already done, I wouldn't bother thinking any harder about it than I just did. Just... Don't.

I do like the idea of those alter-motor things though. Concievably you can fit one if you relocate your power steering (mr2 electric-hydraulic pump) and air-conditioning (prius) pumps somewhere off-motor. Run a cam with a mild atkinson cycle... trchnical... blah blah... expense... yadayada... forever garaged... etc

Just how complicated are you willing to go? Just a new engine spec or are you prepared to fundamentally alter the way the car... is...?

[Frank Lee]

None of it matters because he's going to drive it through New York winters and they salt the roads so it will be reduced to rusty shrapnel in a few years anyway.

[JSH]

Originally Posted by henshao

Hub motors is way too hard?

Yes. Unless you have a huge budget for someone to fabricate it from scratch just for your car. Even then hub motors have severe limitations for road vehicles.

If you want a hybrid RWD car the economical way to do it is with belt-driven replacement for the alternator. Economics and ease of installation is why GM did this with their mild hybrids in the 2000's.

The MOST economic thing to do is leave the muscle car as is and get a cheap commuter car for commuting. I realize some people want a challenge but the economics don't work.

[Phoenix'97]

Originally Posted by henshao

I am glad to see that only one or two guys actually had the gall to say an LT1 Firebird isn't a muscle car. Very helpful fellas

I am not sure how to take this comment. I will say, however, that we all have our notions and opinions of what a "muscle car" is. If my car is not a genuine 60's/70's definition of a "muscle car", then perhaps after I have her resto-modded she might better fit that criteria.

Originally Posted by henshao

Re: An oil cooler. As some of you may or may not know the LT1 features reverse-flow cooling, and the cooling system I believe is overengineered as a precaution: the LT1 cars have 5 quarts of oil and 15 quarts of coolant, and I'm somewhat confident the oil heats up faster than the coolant, at least in my car which has an electric water pump and hence has perhaps excessively effective cooling at idle.

However, if you have your heart set on such a modification, it is hardly a modification at all. The factory radiator has two sub-cores to which an oil line and a transmission fluid line could be run.

If there is any benefit to be gained from this small modification that does not currently exist on my car from the factory, then I am best to have it incorporated, am I not? I also left out oil catch cans on my car, since I can be trusted to check them and empty them when necessary! We are talking small modifications here, there, and everywhere to squeeze out as much efficiency as we can while I try to explore avenues to maintain the fun factor of driving my car. As much as I would love to have a stroker using a small lift camshaft, I am still fearful of the hit my city mileage will take and especially during winter with prolonged idling. Any gains I manage in city mileage are lost with a stroker, from what I have researched...

Originally Posted by henshao

My takeaways from this thread for my own goals are that my long hoped for and dreamed of electric-front wheels-with-a-rear-mount-turbo is perhaps crazy like a fox after all.

How's this sound: Altermotor, hub motor driven front wheels, large rear mount turbo, and 18:1 A/F cruising ratio? I am pleased to learn that a mixture so very lean is actually cooler burning.

My car has 2.73's behind the automatic and turns 2000rpms at 80mph. It has far, far more than enough low end to continue accelerating seemingly forever with very little throttle. Either there is something wrong with the OP's car or his WS6 (Firehawk if I'm not mistake) came with a mid-to-high range cam.

I have a manual 6-speed that I have contemplated using a 2.73 rear axle ratio for, but I need MORE LOW END TORQUE or else I am lugging the hell out of my motor with my current camshaft. This is where the stroker would address the issue but I don't want to ruin my current EPA rated city mileage as this is the bulk of my driving average, city with some highway.

To make a long story short, I am using a Jasper remanufactured LT1 engine, so God knows what kind of camshaft I have. I will tell you it has more torque up high than it does down low and I possibly made the mistake of replacing my rusted out exhaust manifolds with aftermarket shorty headers that reduce my low end torque to favor high RPM torque! So, now I am looking into long tube headers designed for the lower RPM range if it is even possible... Since I spent the money on this new block, I would like to salvage it. I have the benefit of reverse-flow cooling so now I need to mix-and-match other car parts like the Tuned Port Injection intake manifold that I seek for my 2000 RPM to 4500 RPM "fun".

[Phoenix'97]

Originally Posted by Frank Lee

None of it matters because he's going to drive it through New York winters and they salt the roads so it will be reduced to rusty shrapnel in a few years anyway.

Carwell - Rust and Corrosion Control | Rust Prevention Products & Services

I currently use these guys although when I have my car resto-modded I will see what can be done to coat the metal frame and unibody in a thick corrosion resistant coating with paint added over it. Then I need to be diligent with Delta-Sonic Super Kisses during the winter months. Hey, I have seen cars that have shown bare minimal corrosion thanks to overly-frequent Delta Sonic trips during the winter here in New York! For now, the Carwell service will have to do.

[Phoenix'97]

Originally Posted by JSH

Yes. Unless you have a huge budget for someone to fabricate it from scratch just for your car. Even then hub motors have severe limitations for road vehicles.

If you want a hybrid RWD car the economical way to do it is with belt-driven replacement for the alternator. Economics and ease of installation is why GM did this with their mild hybrids in the 2000's.

The MOST economic thing to do is leave the muscle car as is and get a cheap commuter car for commuting. I realize some people want a challenge but the economics don't work.

Well, if the hub motor idea is a no go, then I will have to suffer with an inline drive plug-in hybrid system and a BAS hybrid system! If I can't do it, I can't do it but goodie, this is money saved to pour into other modifications!

I will tell you this, after my car emerges from her fiery ashes into a new Phoenix, she will be so much more better than when she was brand new from the GM factory in Canada back in December of 1996. Furthermore, she will likely be built so well that she will last me another 30 or so years before I require a resto-mod then! The economics of this beats the crap out of buying an overly priced new car every 10-years! It's not the fuel savings that saves me money, it's not having to trade up cars, and trading up to cars that I will never enjoy as much as I do my LT1 F-body Firebird.

[JSH]

Originally Posted by Phoenix'97

This is why I am exploring my options and seeing what I can and can not do. Fortunately I don't live in California but New York has recently adopted the stringent emissions standards of California. So, trying to do my part to help make my car more "emissions friendly", I am exploring the tried-and-true methods to improve low RPM/mid-range RPM torque production from an improved factory/mild cammed 5.7L engine. Front wheel electric hub motors can also assist in the low RPM torque production. Yes, I am aware of the legality behind long tube headers, even if I have them built with emissions hook-ups and making use of California catalytic converters! I need to ask around and see what I can do!

EVEN TO USE ISO-BUTANOL IN MY CAR MAY BE ILLEGAL! Someone mentioned that if I am not paying some tax on this fuel for my car that I can get in trouble with the IRS. Well, if Big Brother is reading this, you better find a way to tax the fuel now, huh? Do they even tax Ethanol when the damn stuff is heavily subsidized? They tax non-ethanol gasoline which is what I use!

Everything you plan to do is illegal under federal law and has been since the Clean Air Act passed in 1973. The Clean Air Act made it illegal to modify your car in any way that changes the emissions. That rules out all engine modifications. If it isn't factory spec it is illegal unless the tuning company has tested and certified that the car still meets emission standards after the new parts are installed. OEMs and large tuning companies like Hennessey and Roush offer legal modification packages. The last time I had a product certified the testing was $250,000 so you can see why most companies just sell parts that are illegal for road use and pretend the are for "Competition Use Only".

Now that New York has adopted CARB the emissions requirements in NY are identical to those in CA. However, they are not retroactive and your 1997 car is only required to meet 1997 standards.

Running Iso-Butanol is your car it illegal. Not just because you plan to dodge road taxes but also because your car has not been certified to use that fuel. You can only legally use fuels that your car has been tested and certified to use. In your case that is gasoline and ethanol blends up to E10.

Yes, Ethanol is taxed. The subsidies are for corn production and ethanol production and go to those producers. It is taxed the same as gasoline at point of use.

If you truly want to reduce emissions you need to park the Firebird and start driving a modern car with current emission controls at least for the majority of your miles. Even if your car was like new running perfectly, your car is producing much more pollution than a modern car. Car have become MUCH cleaner in the past 20 years.

[Frank Lee]

I roll through stops.

[JSH]

Originally Posted by Frank Lee

I roll through stops.

Sometimes I do too. I also break the speed limit almost every day. I am knowingly breaking the law with full knowledge that I might get a ticket.

[Frank Lee]

Then the legality of lack of isn't all that.