How to Use Less Fuel (yet another HHO thread, lacking substantive evidence)

[dcb]

http://www.randolph-automotive.com/e...combustion.doc

They don't even consider using the alternator, but reform fuel to make hydrogen on the go
read carefully,
"9. The economy benefit from running lean almost compensates for the energy requirements for making hydrogen from gasoline in an atmospheric reactor. "

I'm done here.

[Dr. Jerryrigger]

Originally Posted by dcb

http://www.randolph-automotive.com/e...combustion.doc

They don't even consider using the alternator, but reform fuel to make hydrogen on the go
read carefully,
"9. The economy benefit from running lean almost compensates for the energy requirements for making hydrogen from gasoline in an atmospheric reactor. "

I'm done here.

Interesting article, but:
"making hydrogen from gasoline in an atmospheric reactor" is not what we are talking about here.

[dcb]

yes, because doing it with an alternator is so inefficient as to be stupid.

I mean look,
they can't make it make sense using a hydrocarbon to make the hydrogen. It still doesn't result in any mpg increase.

How is using the engine to run the alternator to make hydrogen from water (several layers of significant inefficiency there) going to do any better? You are in essense making hydrogen from hydrocarbons AND water and making a lot of heat (because it is terribly inefficient).

[ac7ss]

Originally Posted by greenfuelbooster

You might want to check this PhD study. This might probably explain the hydroxy side.
4shared - free file sharing and storage - share folder - My 4shared

(Refering to the thesis linked.)

I can see the advantages of the HAJI system in the CFR engine, as it would be much more efficient. But the engines that we use are not HAJI, they have a common ignition chamber and do not get the advantage of the HAJI, but do get the marginal advantage of additional combustion material in the chamber. Many of us do have a better combustion cylinder than the CFR engine, it is called Controlled Vortex Combustion Chamber (CVCC) developed by Honda in the 80s.

The benefit of "HHO" enrichment is marginal due to the fact that you are breaking the water with battery power and re-combining the elements in the combustion chamber. There is a net loss in the system because you are charging the battery with the alternator, increasing the load on the engine. Not to mention the addition of an explosive gas mixture to your engine compartment.

[ac7ss]

How about this experiment for HHO:

Measure the output of the device (Route the bubbles into a submerged, inverted container). simple math will account for the ratios of H2 and O2 produced (by volume.)

Use flow metered H2 and O2 from industrial tanks and insert that mixture into your intake.

See if it really makes a difference.

(If you don't like your engine, try just adding a little O2 by itself.)

[ChazInMT]

It has occurred to me since posting last, and thinking further about this, we already do have Hydrogen Powered cars. Gasoline is a Hydrocarbon (Hydrogen & Carbon atoms bound together) with the C8H18 Molecule being the "average" hydrocarbon to represent the soup of C_H_ Molecules.

Researching on the web I found this:
Gasoline Combustion

So basically, in our engines we mix up Oxygen (It's in the air we breath...bout 21%) with C8H18 and end up with CO2 & Water. About 1 gallon of water is created for every gallon of fuel used, plus a crap load of the CO2 which is the other unfortunate byproduct. (Along with the $27.50 missing from our wallets on a 10 gallon fill up)

I got to wondering how much water these HHO generators use and HA! I found this!

HHO Q&A

"How much Water is Used?
Very little. You could drive many weeks without having to add more. We advise to add distilled water once every week or two to ensure maximum gas production. If you drive the average of 2,000 miles per month, only 1 Gallon of distilled water, costing about $1 at grocery stores, is consumed in about 8 months (in a single cell system). If you want to make your own distilled water, units are out there for around $100, or you can find simple plans on line to build one."

Lets do the math!

So, with 32MPG, (Being generous here) you'd use 500 Gallons of gas in the time it takes for an HHO generator to piddle through 1 gallon of water, in the mean time your car has generated 500 gallons of water through the combustion of Gasoline. So, yer gonna tell me that a .2% Change in the fuel, 1/2 Tablespoon per gallon, is gonna get me a 30% Increase in my fuel mileage. And the ingredients of the miracle substance are Hydrogen & Oxygen, Just the same thing we're using anyway?

Again, Logic folks, Lets add 1/500th of something to our fuel, which has the same atoms as our fuel, and it is going to yield 30-60% better fuel mileage. Any better mileage?

Many apologies to those who firmly believe that logic is no obstacle to pursuing the dream of clean, free energy.

[Dr. Jerryrigger]

Well you still basing this on the known spammers' numbers, a realistic gain is 1-6%. Even 20% is fair fetched.

[Frank Lee]

More like a realistic gain of zero.

[Dr. Jerryrigger]

Originally Posted by Frank Lee

More like a realistic gain of zero.

Well that would still be something of interest, as there is rather notable energy loss. A gain of -1% would seem to be what this should do.
Anyway, this thread is going no where, as no one has any data (as it doesn't seem to exist). I know much about the topic, but have not done any real testing as of yet. No one else here seems to have any experience with this except for one probable crack-pot, and someone who was using a rather crude set up (which, BTW, showed very minimal gains, not losses).
I believe that there is something worth looking at with this subject, but it's not going to change the world in any notable way.... if i had to, I'd put my money on compressed algae gas as the post-petroleum fuel of choice, which wouldn't benefit form HHO in the way a liquid fuel would.

[ChazInMT]

Who Needs Data???

If someone comes up to me and says...."I'm gonna carve a place to sit in the middle of this huge rock, then I'm gonna roll it off a steep cliff and fly to Spain inside it." I'd be a bit skeptical, and I don't think I'd need data to figure out their adventure was going to be short lived.

Just look at the Facts here.