Go Back   EcoModder Forum > EcoModding > DIY / How-to
Register Now
 Register Now
 

Closed Thread  Post New Thread
 
Submit Tools LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 06-20-2010, 11:15 AM   #1 (permalink)
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: VA
Posts: 23
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
How to Use Less Fuel (yet another HHO thread, lacking substantive evidence)

Restrict air after the MAF sensor. This will make the car think it is driving at high altitude. At high altitude there is less air. The ECU is forced to inject less fuel.


Last edited by greenfuelbooster; 06-20-2010 at 11:17 AM.. Reason: statement restructuring
 
Alt Today
Popular topics

Other popular topics in this forum...

   
Old 06-20-2010, 11:59 AM   #2 (permalink)
Left Lane Ecodriver
 
RobertSmalls's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA
Posts: 2,258

Prius C - '12 Toyota Prius C
Thanks: 79
Thanked 283 Times in 196 Posts
Isn't this equivalent to pressing less hard on the throttle pedal?
 
Old 06-20-2010, 01:57 PM   #3 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Wisconsin, United States
Posts: 479
Thanks: 6
Thanked 19 Times in 19 Posts
Sounds like the same idea of a WAI.
 
Old 06-20-2010, 03:49 PM   #4 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 5,927
Thanks: 877
Thanked 2,018 Times in 1,302 Posts
Air can have the same pressure and be less dense.

It needs to be either hotter or dryer.

I think of my driving as fuel accounting, fewest highest load (without enrichment) combustion events that I can use to maintain the same speed. Same for acceleration and deceleration.

The injector can vary the amount of fuel delivered by something like 1500%. The best delivery percentage is about three quarters of that. Most economical engines will produce close to BSFC power at 1500 RPM with a good load and less than 4 inches of vacuum, you can't really go too far wrong.

Pulse that way and glide, engine on or off.(off being about 10% more economical).

You can do slightly better than that with better information, but the difference will not be a heck of a lot. The range will vary much greater based on your average speed, than any more precise techniques.

In my VX what you notice is the gearing is soo tall. The car will do 120 in 3rd. If you need to maintain speed up a grade in the VX you are better off in lean burn and 3rd gear than 5th gear where you would have to floor the car to maintain the grade.

From what I understand in the VX 3rd gear is very close to 5th in a DX, so in the DX you would pulse much more agressively than you would in the much taller geared VX.

regards
Mech
 
Old 06-20-2010, 04:29 PM   #5 (permalink)
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: maine
Posts: 758

oldscoob - '87 subaru wagon gl/dr
90 day: 47.06 mpg (US)
Thanks: 21
Thanked 18 Times in 14 Posts
Quote:
The injector can vary the amount of fuel delivered by something like 1500%
1500%? come on now. come back to earth like a carb jet that actually atomizes at the speed of sound...

it is no more than 100% of its given ability... where is the 1500 coming from?

it is clever trick with the maf, I could guess the o2 sensor makes up for actual density, restricted or not.

I wonder if my carb is 15 million percent. maybe 10 million.

from zero percent skip right past the 100 and make up numbers as I go along.

may as well add 3 times as much injection, double the valves, and increae fuel flow to 20 times that of a carb system..and pretend I am a hypermiler, with a 1500% throttle.
 
Old 06-20-2010, 05:42 PM   #6 (permalink)
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: VA
Posts: 23
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
I get 45 - 50 MPG highway on my 06 civic (my daily driver) ... The only problem with the setup is that the car loses some power. I added hydroxy gas to regain some power back. I documented my setup here:
 
Old 06-20-2010, 06:28 PM   #7 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
mwebb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: New York
Posts: 506

no nickname , it's just a car - '04 volkswagen golf tdi
Thanks: 2
Thanked 101 Times in 74 Posts
unless the system has a MAP sensor ... no

Quote:
Originally Posted by greenfuelbooster View Post
Restrict air after the MAF sensor. This will make the car think it is driving at high altitude. At high altitude there is less air. The ECU is forced to inject less fuel.
umm
no , your modification will not have any effect at all .

the MAF just counts the air , that's all , it can not measure pressure , directly , some systems like Ford s can use the MAF flow at WOT to CALCULATE BARO .

because VE is known and displacement is known and temperature is known and RPM is known .
pressure can be calculated .

feed back from the AFR sensor or 02 sensor will keep fuel trim and actual AFR right where the ECM wants it to be , to the limit of authority of the AFR sensor or 02 sensor .
==================================
so if flow is restricted , by your foot or by the plumbing , the result is the same
but
at WOT , your VE will suffer , strangled by the restriction.
altogether , not a good idea .
=====================================
why do you think it is a good idea ?
Does an 06 civic , your 06 civic even have a baro PID ? if yes , does the system arrive at the value using a MAP / Pressure / Baro sensor or a calculation ?
==========================
culled from the list of available PIDs for a 2006 Honda CRv

....
dding (22): All Injector Deactivation Mode
Adding (23): AT 'D' Position Switch
Adding (24): AT Neutral-Parking Switch
Adding (25): AT-CVT Reverse Position Switch Input Status
Adding (26): Barometric Air Pressure
Adding (27): Barometric Air Pressure - Volts

Adding (28): Battery Voltage
Adding (29): Block Learn For IG Timing Collection For Knocking Control
Adding (30): Block Learn For IG Timing Collection For Knocking Control EGR Condition
Adding (31): Brake Switch .....

we see a PID for Baro pressure and Baro sensor voltage , indicating that the value is measured by a pressure sensor , not calculated .

HHO is also a bad idea --------

Last edited by mwebb; 06-20-2010 at 06:39 PM.. Reason: i am from ny , and i thought of something else
 
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to mwebb For This Useful Post:
Christ (07-02-2010), Frank Lee (06-20-2010)
Old 06-20-2010, 06:36 PM   #8 (permalink)
The PRC.
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Elsewhere.
Posts: 5,304
Thanks: 285
Thanked 535 Times in 384 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Mechanic View Post
In my VX what you notice is the gearing is soo tall. The car will do 120 in 3rd. If you need to maintain speed up a grade in the VX you are better off in lean burn and 3rd gear than 5th gear where you would have to floor the car to maintain the grade.
I'm interested in researching this in my TDI a little more. The gearing in 6th is very high and I have experimenting with lugging in a high gear with as little throttle as possible to maintain speed and going into a lower gear and doing the same.

I haven't come up with a complete answer, sometimes the higher gear is better and sometimes the lower one is. I do the same route and try different things but its a toss up as to which one wins.

How does BSFC work for this ?
__________________
[I]So long and thanks for all the fish.[/I]
 
Old 06-20-2010, 09:16 PM   #9 (permalink)
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: VA
Posts: 23
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
I did this configuration on my 06 Civic since Jan 2009 ... I get consistently at least 45 MPG highway since then. The mechanic from Mr Tire saw the setup and said it mimics high altitude driving.
 
Old 06-20-2010, 10:09 PM   #10 (permalink)
Left Lane Ecodriver
 
RobertSmalls's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA
Posts: 2,258

Prius C - '12 Toyota Prius C
Thanks: 79
Thanked 283 Times in 196 Posts
The ORNL studied the effect of intake restrictions: You have less power available (which will save gas iff you're a leadfoot, but you'd be better off just installing a heavier throttle spring), but in a modern fuel injected engine, there is no change in fuel economy because the computer is able to compensate for the intake restriction to keep the air:fuel ratio at its target.

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/pdfs/...02_26_2009.pdf

GFB, I'm glad to hear your economy has improved. However, can you verify that your mods have any impact? This calls for A-B-A testing.

 
Closed Thread  Post New Thread


Thread Tools


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
smart cdi (diesel) owner from BC, Canada smartzuuk Introductions 29 09-06-2018 04:09 PM
Fuel Economy related papers tasdrouille General Efficiency Discussion 38 09-10-2017 01:48 AM
Hydrogen Generator Experiment willy57 DIY / How-to 601 08-23-2016 06:53 AM
Engine braking without using fuel idea Dane-ger EcoModding Central 38 02-04-2010 11:35 AM
Psychological Ways of Saving Fuel Wayneburg General Efficiency Discussion 22 06-06-2008 10:24 AM



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.5.2
All content copyright EcoModder.com