I want to get to the bottom of this ethanol killing my mpg

[Frank Lee]

[SentraSE-R]

My experience with E10 came as I crossed the country last Summer in my Scion. From Texas through Florida, my mileage logs recorded 9 tanks below average (out of 40 total, as I post/edit this), and 4 of the only 6 tanks I've ever gotten below 40 mpg in that car. Not coincidentally, all the SE states mandate E10.

I can't blame the low mileage on higher temperatures or running the AC. I ran the AC through all the hot states, including Utah, Arizona, Nevada, and New Mexico.

Besides, the lower BTU content of E10 is documented.

[shovel]

Sure is weird how many of us have no problem with E10 eh? I mean isn't that just... weird as hell? Here we are with ordinary cars just like yours that just simply don't have any problem whatsoever running E10.

[SentraSE-R]

Everyone should experience worse mileage using ethanol. Anyone who doesn't, isn't paying attention. I haven't read this whole tread, but ethanol's deleterious effects are recognized by a number of groups, including Consumers Union, the Outdoor Power Equipment Institute, and the National Marine Manufacturers Association. You and Nerys are relying on personal anecdotes. Those groups are looking at millions of engines.

[shovel]

Right so because 10% of my fuel has 66% of the BTU's available that the other 90% of my fuel has, I should be seeing a 20% reduction in mileage?

I'm well aware that ethanol has fewer btu's. That's fine, it also has different characteristics all along its life cycle and I happen to be located in the "ethanol's production and consumption is less damaging to the world than gasoline's" camp until non-retarded evidence is presented to change my view.

And my cars all run fine on E10, I don't "hypermile" at all and consistently get better than the EPA listed mileage out of them, both the ones i've modified and the GF's acura which is bone stock. If we are to assume for the sake of constructive discussion that I am not full of cr@p, this means anyone NOT experiencing the same results either has a problem with their car, their driving technique, or is buying some sort of wonky different fuel than I am.

[Nerys]

OR just by luck you happen to have different "cars" than we do?

also the more likely answer is YOU NEVER PAID ATTENTION TO YOUR MPG BEFORE so you assume "whatever your getting now" is normal.

There are other possibilities but they are no discussable here without issues.

I have 2 jeep cherokee's both 88 models with I6's
I have 4 Minivan's 96 Voyager 2 94 Lumina's and a 98 Windstar
I have a 92 Clubwagon
I have a 94 Metro
I have a 96 Towncar
I have a 99 Sephia
I have a 98 Saturn

When I say I have I mean I have access too. ie in our family. Mom Pop brother etc..

ALL of them. 100% of them are seeing a dramatic drop in FE far and above the simple BTU difference between the fuels

Let me list some data points for you.

The Cherokee's

88 Cherokee stock. Old mpg 22mpg NEW mpg 18mpg

88 Cherokee Lifted (different truck) Old mpg 24mpg new mpg 19mpg

I eventually took the engine out of the Cherokee stock and put it in the cherokee lifted (its why I bought it) my lifted cherokee has 493,000 miles on it. It had 92,000 when I bought it. so I put over 400,000 miles on this truck all by myself.

Thats enough data points that I know TO A TEE what it should be doing and what it should be getting.

in 400,000 miles of driving the only time my mileage changed (other than from mechanical issues) was when I went from Stock tires (21mpg average) to Lifted with larger tires (23-24mpg average) yes this is odo adjusted for tire sized.

I also in 400,000 miles of driving saw absolutely ZERO difference in gasoline from any gas station and saw almost ZERO difference summer or winter blends. (I have a very long commute so my "warm up" time is a small fraction of my overall commute 54miles one way 1:20.) at least thats how people on the boards here explained it to me.

When I took drove the 88 cherokee with ethanol I average 14-15mpg

when I took that engine OUT OF THE CHEROKEE and put it into the LIFTED CHEROKEE the very next tank was 22mpg

wanna take a guess why? well the 2.5 year old gas in the lifted cherokee's tank was PRE ETHANOL.

(this happens a few years ago about 8 months after the all over switch to ethanol around here)

When I filled the tank (I run them near empty) with ethanol gas 15mpg

Could something be WRONG with my truck? sure I will admit to that possibility then EXPLAIN THIS

I took nearly 40 gallons of 3+ year old gas out of our Motorhome (it had about 50 gallons sitting in its 80 gallon tank)

and used THAT to fill my cherokee (after getting 14-15mpg for 2 months)

BOTH of those tanks average OVER 22mpg

Third tank I only got 10 gallons out of the RV (this is how I knew it had 50gallons inside) so had to put 8 or 9 more gallons of ethanol gas.

that tank I got 18mpg

the next tank was back down to 14-15mpg

you explain that? what MECHANICAL ISSUE on my end would cause this?

name ONE driving technique or occurrence that could cause such a difference? I am fully ready to admit its something OTHER than the fuel which would fly in the face of reality to me. Just as soon as you tell me WHAT it is?

Now later on I STOPPED buying gas from anyone but Sunoco and Wawa. Why? I noticed and odd thing. Every now and then a tank would spike to 18-19mpg. While looking at my gas reciepts I HAPPENED to notice all the higher mpg tanks were from the rt73 Sunoco and the Wawa gas station.

SO I started TESTING the gas. almost all the gas stations had 10-12% ethanol content (this is by the scale on the little test tube I got so while it make not be absolute accurate its accurate for a relative comparison between stations)

but the sunoco and the wawa both measured at 6-8% ethanol. Needles to say I was taken aback by that. 4% difference in ethanol had THAT big an effect on my cars. Was it just the ethanol? was it something additive they mixed with it that did something in concert with the ethanol? I have no idea. I can only measure the ethanol.

SO I started ONLY buying from them and my mpg's remained CONSISTENT at 18-19mpg instead of 14-15mpg

Eventually I stopped getting 18-19mpg at Sunoco a tube test confirmed my suspicion. The ethanol % had gone up. So I stopped going to sunoco.

a year later now I am starting to get worse mpg again at Wawa. I suspect they are not also a higher ethanol content. Once I find my little test tube I will confirm or deny this with a test.

THE REAL eye opener for me was my Club Wagon.

I average a solid 19mpg in that van NO MATTER HOW I DROVE IT. I almost always got within .5mpg or 19mpg VERY reliably. About the only thing I could do to change that was goto the mountains (which tanked it) or tow a trailer (7,000 pounds) which tanked it.

On the pure highway travels I hit as high as 21mpg but very rarely.

When ethanol hit (I did not know it at the time) I plummeted to 13mpg. I Freaked. such a huge drop meant something was wrong big time with my van. (remember I did not know about ethanol at the time)

I started tearing things apart and checking everything. testing sensors replacing sensors etc.. trying to nail down this problem then as suddenly as it happened it went away. 19mpg again

what the hell? this happened a few times (I was beginning to think flunky ECU) then I noticed filling up once this sticker on the pump that said 10% Ethanol. I was like what the hell is that? what the hell is ethanol so I asked him. He did not know.

I looked it up and there is how I discovered ethanol.

From then on I avoided stations with the sticker like the plague. My mpg remained STEADY at the normal 19mpg

alas this only lasted about 3 months before I could NO LONGER find a gas station without the sticker.

I was stuck at 13mpg. Then I started noticing a few tanks that spiked higher at 16-17mpg (the enlightenment on the jeep caused me to start looking at my reciepts) and I noticed the same trend. Sunoco and Wawa got me 16-17mpg versus the 13-14mpg on everyone else)

a year into ethanol I took a trip to Kalamazoo Michigan for a Naram. I was getting the normal 16mpg on the higher (ethanol normal) once I left PA and odd thing happened. I got 19mpg. I started to notice NO STICKERS up here.

from a bit outside PA all the way to Kalamazoo and all the way back to PA. well over 1500 miles of driving (including the daily driving back and forth to the field every day) I average a solid 19mpg

Once back in PA my mpg was back down to 16mpg

so your gonna tell me thats a coincidence too right? They must have had magical fairy gas up there that got me my life time normal 19mpg

something is wrong with THEIR GAS that I got higher mpg. Nothings wrong with the gas around here right? its all in my head.

Clue in shovel. I spend over $3500 a year in gasoline. I drive over 40,000 miles a year.

MY FUEL ECONOMY IS CRITICAL TO ME.

lets do some MATH on the cost difference between 13mpg and 17mpg

at 13mpg thats 3076 gallons of gas or $7692 in fuel (IF I drove the van 100% of the time that price should enlighten you as to why I DO NOT)

at 17mpg its 2352 gallons of gasoline or $5882

THE DIFFERENCE to me between 10-11% ethanol and 6-8% ethanol is $1810 PER YEAR. (now you know why I CAN NOT make my favorite vechicle my Van my daily driver)

WITHOUT ETHANOL it would be 2105 gallons or $5263 a difference of $2429

so the addition of ethanol is COSTING ME $2429 per year in the van.

that vehicle is a bit insane so lets use something more practical to measure this.

My 96 voyager. I put over 80,000 miles on it getting a solid 28mpg. For 2 years this was my daily driver before the tranny puked on me Grrrrr)

Cost per year to drive this. 1428 gallons of fuel or about $3571 in gasoline (which is about right)

add in ethanol which droped me like a rocket to a max of 21mpg (and that was ONLY after switching to sunoco/wawa AND learning a couple hypermiling techniques from this site at the time this happened) 19-20mpg was the average before that)

NEW fuel usage 1904 gallons at $4761

this means ethanol LITERALLY cost me $1190 MORE PER YEAR and this is using $2.50 a gallon as the metric. When gas over hitting $4 a gallon ..... well you do the math on how much I hate ethanol.

You prove to me ITS WORTH IT.

I see ZERO benefit from ethanol usage.

it is NOT CLEANER
it is NOT GREENER
it is NOT CHEAPER
it DOES NOT reduce foreign oil demand

in fact quite the opposite. With ethanol your burning MORE FUEL

so its actually DIRTIER than gasoline.
its LESS green than gasoline
its MORE EXPENSIVE
and it INCREASES freign oil damand since I now burn MORE GASOLINE.

1428 to 1904 gallons a year. a difference of 476 gallons

People tout per gallon ethanol is cleaner. BS. WRONG MEASURE. do a measure PER MILE to be enlightened.

Pre Ethanol I burned 1428 gallons of gasoline

Post ethanol I burn 1713.6 gallons of gasoline and 190.4 gallons of Ethanol.

that means I am now burning 285.6 MORE GALLONS of pure gasoline per year than I was before. ??????????

Do you not see how insane this is? this means we are not only HURTING OUR CARS boats and planes with corrosive alcohol fuel but we are now buying MORE FOREIGN OIL than we were before !!!!!!!!

285 gallons MORE gasoline PLUS the emissions from the 190.4 gallons of ethanol.

this means its NOT CLEANER AND NOT GREENER

285 gallons MORE gasoline and 190.4 gallons of EXPENSIVE ethanol. THis means its NOT CHEAPER and on top of that it makes FOOD cost more money so its EVEN MORE expensive.

285 gallons MORE gasoline which means it INCREASES foreign oil demand.

NOW in theory we we ran 100% ethanol if we could produce it ALL domestically (physically impossible with current technology) and we could produce it CHEAPER than gasoline (you can not) going to ethanol WOULD MAKE SENSE

but this would also require that all 360million of us to BUY NEW CARS. Sorry I just can not afford to buy a new car and I DO NOT WANT to buy a new car. I am very happy with my current cars. its the damned FUEL I am not happy with.

the ONLY ones who benefit from ethanol is government and corn farmers.

WHETHER YOU NOTICE IT OR NOT everyone else suffers.

so. YOU. YOU show me ONE SINGLE BENEFIT to E10

its not cleaner. its not cheaper. its NOT greener and it is NOT lowering foreign oil demand and it increases repair costs and fuel costs across the board.

YOU show me ONE REASON e10 is a good idea.

[gone-ot]

Originally Posted by Nerys

YOU show me ONE REASON e10 is a good idea.

...it's not E85 (wink,wink)!

[Nerys]

except e85 is pointless. There is not enough arable land IN THE WORLD to meet the fuel demands of just the United States. On top of this the ONLY way E85 makes any sense if it we all run cars DESIGNED TO RUN on E85

the MASS MAJORITY OF US can not afford a new car and FORCING the issue by FORCING the change of fuel will NOT RESULT in us buying new cars it will just result in us NOT DRIVING because forcing a change of fuel does NOT magically put the money to buy a new car in my bank account.

On top of that we would try to force the use of CORN ethanol (one of the least efficient ways to make ethanol) because we are a CORN NATION.

[Laurentiu]

your last comment could be a final statement in court, it's so long and well-documented....I don't mean it in a bad way....It's sad to hear that. I hope that some European heavy-heads won't be considering that option in the future...

[gone-ot]

Originally Posted by Laurentiu

I hope that some European heavy-heads won't be considering that option in the future...

...I'd rather see a single "universal" 100 octane grade gasoline as a world-wide standard mandated for all vehicle manufacturers.

...if your vehicle needs a higher octane, YOU have to pay "extra" and buy something to "add" to each tank. Basically, a "guzzler tax" for extra HP.

...there's no need to have 2, 3 or 4 or more grades of gasoline...just winter and summer "blends" as the weather (or location) dictates.

...think about it -- there's basically just ONE grade of diesel the world around (low-sulphur).