I want to get to the bottom of this ethanol killing my mpg

[dcb]

hook up a wideband sensor to monitor what your car does on e10 vs not, and test the moisture content in your fuel.

[Nerys]

What is a wide band sensor? what do they cost where do I get one? Will it connect to my 1988 Cherokee?

How do I measure Moisture content? I have the test tube to measure Ethanol content if that helps.

alas fir your E10 Vs not same problem. Getting the "not"

[shovel]

Originally Posted by Nerys

How do I measure Moisture content? I have the test tube to measure Ethanol content if that helps.

Although I do admit that I get irritated when I see what looks like a clear personal bias against ethanol (not talking ONLY of you Nerys, and it's nothing personal ) - I also am posting in this thread to be helpful, not confrontational.

As we've established, if we are to go with the assumption that everyone here has shared their true experiences, we are left with you having severe problems using E10 and me having no problems whatsoever, and there is nothing remarkable about any of our vehicles really.

I'm wondering, is there inexpensive equipment that anyone could obtain to compare some basic properties of the fuels they use? Specific gravity, moisture content, etc? Like those antifreeze test kits for example... It may genuinely be that the oxygenated gas I buy here (pump states "may contain up to 10% ethanol") has significant differences from what you get. For one thing our air is not very humid, and our soil is dry - deserts being what they are - so fuels wouldn't naturally absorb much water during storage, transfer into the fuel tank, and from the air charge entering the engine alongside the fuel.

[dwtaylorpdx]

The basic problem is that the ethanol is not the primary chemical that has the most effect on the burn rate of the fuel, the base fuel and the alcohol are very predictable, its the additive package that contains the VOC control chemicals, detergents, and some other evil stuff is why the E10 issue is all over the map.

I had the fun of sitting with a Fuel Chemist at a CART race a couple years ago while selling race gas and ethanol and methanol to the teams and he gave me a wonderful insight as to how screwed up the fuel distribution system really is. Couple things he told me, first, they change the additive package all the time because of the chemical availability and pricing. Second, some chemical packages are additive, IE they net a higher octane when mixed, some are net zero and some even cost you octane. That tank of "bad gas" you got at the station in wherever-ville? It may have been the mix in your tank fuel killing whatever was in their pump, the bad gas is a easy out for the stations cause its always the other guys fault.

Most of the blending of the gasoline happens at the distributor, the driver gets out and hooks up the hose, plugs in a number for the mix he wants and starts it pumping.
He aint a chemist or even really trained on the fuel mix. So if its a digit off whats the big deal? :0

One of the reasons I never run "plus" grade gasoline is the lack of control on it.
Most stations have a system thats supposed to be calibrated that mixes the regular and premium to get plus. And there is little to no inspection ever done to see if your really getting any premium fuel out of it.... And how would they keep up with the additive packaging?

Dave

[dwtaylorpdx]

Oh yea forgot s small anecdotal story.

I work on a Dwarf car, its a itty bitty car with a GZX1100 air cooled motorcycle engine pumped to almost 200 HP. On 110 oct race leaded the cylinder head temp pegged the guage, and it burned a 2 gallon tank of fuel each heat as well as the occasional valve. . We converted it to Methanol, had to double the fuel load and the head temp dropped to 225F.

Dave

[Nerys]

What gets me irritated is when all my very clear (on my end at least) data says ethanol is a problem. NOW this does not mean its ONLY ethanol. the addition of ethanol might cause "other" issues that are not an issue outside the presence of ethanol. (water absorptions conflicts with additives etc.. etc..) but in the end the core issue is these were not "issues" until the addition of ethanol.

Oddly enough ethanol percentage SEEMS to be pretty consistent at each gas station.

I have measured the ethanol content at Wawa's in both PA and NJ well over a dozen times and its always 6-8% (its one of the reasons I buy most of my gas at Wawa as I can just manage to get 19mpg with the Cherokee on 6-8%

When I goto the cheapy station that reads 10-11% ethanol (which I have used for over a decade with ZERO performance difference from wawa or anywhere else prior to ethanol) I get 14-15mpg OR LESS sometimes.

thats why it seemed to me to make sense. Test the gas first. Determine IS IT the fuel or IS IT my cars. while all my data says 99% certain its the fuel its really is in the end just "hearsay" if you will.

it really could be a giant coincidence that all 8 of our vehicles just had something go wrong with them that we have not located a fix for yet. No one has yet to tell me what that might be. but I fully admit its possible.

"maybe" there is some common factor between all our vehicles that makes them more "prone to issues" with ethanol that is somewhat unique to our vehicles?

I have no idea what. 2 AMC Jeeps 2 Fords and 2 Chevies 1 Plymouth

I will take any suggestions you guys can give me. What to test what to check but you would need to tell me HOW to do it or point me to a URL for how to do it.

My economy drop is relatively consistent and very consistent to %ethanol. when I get gas at a station with more or less ethanol I 100% of the time get less or more mpg. I tested this over some 45-50 tanks testing the ethanol each time comparing to the MPG achieved. I tend to run my tanks pretty dry usually down to 2 or 3 gallons left so the "left over mix" is usually not much to worry about. (20 gallon tank in the jeep 35 gallon tank in the Clubwagon)

I found that Valero's and "no name" gas stations had the absolute highest ethanol levels. 10-12% none of them likely had 12% thats just what my little test tube told me. ACTUAL ethanol content was not as important to me as "relative" ethanol content.

Sunnoco on Rt73 (did not test any other sunnoco's) and the 3 Wawa's I tried all had the lowest ethanol content 6-8% I test the wawa on 13 in bristol pa the wawa 5 miles from EHC toward AC and the Wawa down in pleasentville. All the same.

so I only buy gas at those places regardless of price. Thankfully they are usually on the competitive side of the price range too.

Soo have at it tell me what you want me to do. If it requires expensive equipment I don't already have your out of luck I am about as broke as them come.

[gone-ot]

...you're aware they "pipe" the different fuel grades through the SAME pipes, using TIME-slot allotments to know WHEN what grade is arriving in the pipe.

[Nerys]

Yup. thats why it pretty much does not matter where you get gas. The only real difference usually is the additives.

[gone-ot]

...and the additives are added just before the tanker departs the "farm" and heads for your local filling station.

[phord]

I remove ethanol from my gas too well at least 75% of ethanol can be removed and i buy 92 octane and plus 89 50/50 so the octane wont fall below 88, 88.5 ( i calculated and tested and it does help to improve milage and cheaper too than buying regular) the only problem I have is longer cranking when its cold outside even with synthetic oil.