I want to get to the bottom of this ethanol killing my mpg

[SleeperRT]

Oh, side tidbit... In, I believe, 1985 they started mandating some ethanol be mixed into gas (formerly known as gasohol). Which is like 5-10% ethanol anyway. This has become our modern gas. As they use ethanol as an octane booster now.

Relevance... cars before this date ran traditional rubber which is eaten up by ethanol because it's very acidic compared to gas. Cars after this date ran synthetic rubber hoses which are not eaten up as bad. Your fuel pump is a rubber bladder (like a power brake booster). The older ones will, and most regular ones go out because this acidic property deteriorates them over time. BUT this isn't horrible because on metal it's great. After running gas for a long time all the small passages get plugged with gunk and need to be replaced, but ethanol will clean all that out. If you don't want to replace hoses and pumps all the time, make sure your fuel path is running things that can handle alchohol or gas.

[MadisonMPG]

This has been said before, but i'm saying it again. Any gas/fuel that we are not importing is good. I don't want to support oil bearing countries. They have 3 things: sand, camels, and oil. If we stop paying them for oil, they will die/not be able to fund terrorism*.


*denotes I understand that not all countries with oil houses terrorism.

[Nerys]

but it sure is helping line the pockets of the CORN industry which is actually where a lot of this "pressure" for ethanol is coming from.

sadly it has nothing to do with alternative fuels or being green so much as whose pockets get "lined" with cash.

The only alternative fuel that is CONSUMER friendly is Pure Electric cars.

Every other alternative currently in existence that I know of EXCEPT MAYBE bio diesel (which is not very green) sacrifices consumer benefits for corporate benefits.

Hydrogen is the worst. its a double slap in the face. It can use electricity like EV's but has ZERO consumer benefits besides being cleaner. its 100% a corporate friendly fuel.

[dcb]

Originally Posted by Nerys

The only alternative fuel that is CONSUMER friendly is Pure Electric cars.

That is true, would need some serious infrastructure changes to get everyone plugged in, but very convenient otherwise.

The road tax guys are probably scratching their heads over it, but who really cares besides the road tax guys?

[Nerys]

Not really. we already have electricity EVERYWHERE. Just plug in.

My boss has already said if I manage to get an electric car he will have me a high amp 220v outlet within 48 hours. It would only cost him "maybe" $100 bucks to install an outlet up front for me.

The car would be fully charges a few hours after I got to work.

then I drive home and plug in.

[dcb]

The number of people who can go all electric (conveniently) is in no small part a question of capacity of the existing electrical generating and transmission system. Just because we have electricity everywhere, I don't think everyone can switch at once, but as more people switch the grid will need to be upgraded.

[SleeperRT]

Plus, let's not forget that while electric vehicles may seem completely emissions free, you've simply moved the fossil fuel burning from your engine to a power plant. We can't complain about reducing our energy use (because we're using too much for the system) and then add all our cars. And the reason our power grid is so stressed is that we don't want to add power plants because they're not green.

Phasing inefficient lights to CFLs, phasing in more efficient appliances, habbits, etc is all great. It will help our present power grid cope with increased demand (from population) over the next few years without adding more plants. Or we can reduce our use, creating room for additional demand (cars), but we would still need to add more capacity. And it seems our present focus is on phasing out fossil fuel plants and replacing them with renewable resource plants. I don't see both happening at once, although both paths are very important.

[gone-ot]

...the COAL plants already exist.

...the RECHARGABLE cars (in reality) don't exist (yet).

...should we be putting our "eggs" into the alteady existing "poluting" infrastructure, or aiming for something that neither polutes nor yet truly exists?

...obviously a 'rhetorical' question on my part.

[Nerys]

Several issues with all of those issue. I will try to address all of them

First dcd:

Incorrect. One of the common myths I hear is that but the grid can not handle the demand of people all suddenly plugging in electric cars.

This is a myth. First every GRID expert ie people from peco etc.. that has been asked have all 100% said NO issue bring it on no sweat.

Second the myth is also that total grid demand will go UP with electric conversion. This is incorrect Total grid demand will actually go DOWN.

Lets use the typical american car. 20mpg. to go 100miles you need 5 gallons of gasoline. While I have not and have no ability to I can say with 100% certaintly that we use MORE ELECTRICITY getting gasoline from the ground to your "fuel tank" than an EV1 or RAV4EV uses to drive 100 miles.

this means TOTAL GRID DEMAND actually goes DOWN not UP.

Second. The average person drives 11,000 miles a year. thats $120 a year in electricity $130 a year at commercial rates. since I HAVE numbers for commercial rates thats what I am going to use.

$130 a PER YEAR means $2.5 dollars per WEEK in electricity to recharge your electric car.

in WATTS this is 18,000 watts of electricity per week.

Now goto your basement of closet and pull out one of those 1500 watt space heaters.

Turn it on for 12.5 hours.

You just used MORE ELECTRICITY in 12.5 hours than your electric car will use in an ENTIRE WEEK.

Is that clear enough? you see most people do not realize JUST HOW STINKING efficient it is to move a car with electricity from a battery. Its insanely crazy efficient. very close to 90% efficient. 89% I believe is the number including losses in your wiring your charger your battery and the motor. ie GRID to WHEELS.

If you can plug in your space heater in the winter without dramatically effecting the grid everyone plugging in an electric car will not even make the grid blink.

The idea that the grid is not ready is 100% pure unadulterated MYTH. in fact I would even go so far as to call it an outright deception a LIE.

No the grid does not need to be updated. NOW if you want "FAST CHARGING" ie you want to pull into a "gas" station and "recharge" your car in 8 minutes. OK that will require an upgrade to the wiring and trunk line feeding that gas station.

but for HOME charging absolutely ZERO changes need to be made. in fact the increase on your electric bill is so damned small you can IGNORE it as noise. the car is FREE to drive for all intents and purposes. Turn off a 75watt bulb for 10 days and you just saved enough to charge your car all month.

it is SO stinking cheap I can see businesses and employers installing Car Charging outlets to DRAW customers and employee's to them. The upgrade would cost VERY little money for the businesses and employers and add NOTHING to there bill compared to what they are already paying.

Next SleeperRT

THEY ARE completely emissions free. you are correct about transfering the pollution to the power plants.

this is another "myth" that needs explanation.

First while YES you are transfering pollution from your tail pipe to your local power plants its not an EVEN transfer. Not even close.

FIRST a gasoline engine is MAYBE 2% to 5% efficient. (people tally aroun 20% efficient but this is 20% of the energy converted to HEAT and ignores all the energy that goes right out the tailpipe never to be converted. the TOTAL energy available in gasoline sent to your tires is around 2-5% (a matter antimatter reaction would net you 100% or close to it)

An electric car is 89% efficient grid to wheels. that alone should tell you something massively important. whenyou pump 100watts into your car only 11watts is wasted.

To equate this to a gasoline car if you pumped 100 watts into the gas car 95-98 of those watts is WASTED.

so first your created FAR FAR less overall pollution simply by being INSANELY efficient.

NEXT single large power plants are far far more efficient and cleaner than thousands of cars. again dramatic reduction in pollution

NEXT only 54% of our nations power comes from coal

Need even MORE? :-) one BONUS of an electric power car is that its POWERED BY ELECTRICITY and ONLY electricity with no other medium (hydrogen) inbetween.

electricity is interesting in that you can MAKE IT in many different ways.

Nano solar is producing solar panels for 90cents a watt. (there cost is 30cents a watt so nice profit too)

this means that including the prices of a grid tie in converter allyou would need to do is tack $2700 onto the price of the car and you could INCLUDE the grid tie in and enough panels to more than 100% offset the electricity your car uses in a month.

ie you are not a power provider selling your watts back to the grid LOWERING the demand on the power plant.

this means after initial investment of the car and the solar panels you car is now

100% free to drive
100% pollution free
100% ZERO load on the grid

You see solar is not the greatest for powering your home because its very expensive but your CAR would need SO LITTLE power in comparison that almost anyone could afford the small modest panel to 100% offset the power their car needs.

Eventually as super caps becomes practical you won't need the power company at all. your solar array can "charge" the supercap bank in your garage or underneath your parking space. and then your car would "charge" off that pack.

Old Tele Man.

Your incorrect. there are RAV4EV's DRIVING on the road today. they get 80-110 miles to a charge. The battery pack has a life span in excess of 25 years for the average driver. They can BUILD those cars today for under $15,000 if they were forced to FULL retail no incentives no rebates no vouchers.

The tech really is that cheap. Its one of the reasons they tried to kill it. Its why they sold the critical NIMH patent to texaco/chevron. It scared the crap out of them.

They would actually have to WORK for their money.

[gone-ot]

...you (obviously) didn't notice the word "rhetorical" nor the humorous postion of my tongue buried deep in my cheek.

...I'm actually "FOR" plug-in hybrids...the american Electric Car died a too early death at the hands of early Ford and GM (when they were all separate companies!) companies.

...where's "Stanley Steamer" (not the 'carpet cleaner' however) when you need him/her?