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Old 02-02-2010, 07:21 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Well, I doubt they'll violently kill themselves, but you may hear about a few resignations, nonetheless.

I don't believe that either the Denso or the CTS design is superior, really, because DBW is a relatively simple concept that many people try to make seem like some outlandishly complex undertaking. RC cars have been doing exactly this for years, except with radio instead of direct wire control. The differences between the pot/stepper setup of an RC car and the way it could be implemented on a DBW system is basically all in the programming. The DBW system would have to have more than one input to determine optimum stepper setting for the throttle, but that has nothing to do with the most simplistic "volume control" pedal there could be.

Remember my Mantra -

Engineers do it on paper - in 2D. Ever tried to make a 2D object exist and function in 3D space?

Real designers do it in real life, in real time, with real parts. When something doesn't work, we document it, figure out why, and correct it.

Sure, it costs a little more up front, but the end result is a part that doesn't fail, kill someone, and cause a 80 million vehicle recall. Isn't that ultimately what we're after?

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Old 02-02-2010, 07:43 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Tele man View Post
...it's simple automotive economics (damn bean counters):

* 15% of $1 cable = 15¢

* 15% of $10 plastic assembly = $1.50

...remember, it's profit to them, not necessarily cost to you, that rules!
nah. they;d still charge $1.35 for a $1 cable.
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Old 02-02-2010, 07:57 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Old Tele man -

(I think luvit beat me to it)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Tele man View Post
...it's simple automotive economics (damn bean counters):

* 15% of $1 cable = 15¢

* 15% of $10 plastic assembly = $1.50

...remember, it's profit to them, not necessarily cost to you, that rules!
Are you trying to say they make the more expensive part and pass the cost on to the consumer? From a UMC (unit manufacturing cost) POV, I don't think that would fly. Instead I think they would make the cheaper part and pass the cost of the more expensive part on to the consumer. In some instances, that's what they did when 3rd party vendors moved manufacturing from the USA to Mexico. The cost to *produce* a steering wheel in the the maquiladora would go down, but the charge to the auto company that assembles the steering wheel into the car would be the same or slightly less. In that case the 3rd party vendor pockets the difference, but the consumer pays the same.

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Old 02-02-2010, 08:06 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Tele man View Post
...it's simple automotive economics (damn bean counters):
* 15% of $1 cable = 15¢
* 15% of $10 plastic assembly = $1.50
...remember, it's profit to them, not necessarily cost to you,
that rules!
Somewhere in all I've read about the CTS pedal assembly it was said;

* It's manufacturing cost is $15
* It's retail cost is $120...

700% profit

That's a lot of beans... No, thats a lot of bull****.

That wouldn't be CTS, that would be Toyota being avaricious assholes.

Last edited by Rokeby; 02-02-2010 at 08:13 PM..
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Old 02-02-2010, 08:06 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cfg83 View Post
Old Tele man -

(I think luvit beat me to it)



Are you trying to say they make the more expensive part and pass the cost on to the consumer? From a UMC (unit manufacturing cost) POV, I don't think that would fly. Instead I think they would make the cheaper part and pass the cost of the more expensive part on to the consumer. In some instances, that's what they did when 3rd party vendors moved manufacturing from the USA to Mexico. The cost to *produce* a steering wheel in the the maquiladora would go down, but the charge to the auto company that assembles the steering wheel into the car would be the same or slightly less. In that case the 3rd party vendor pockets the difference, but the consumer pays the same.

CarloSW2
This is currently what goes on with "green" technology, as well. It's a very common practice, and though it seems like it should be the exception, it's actually the norm, in many cases. They find a way to chop their cost, while making it seem like something is "value added", to justify the consumer having to pay more for the same, in the best case, and pay more for less, more likely.
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Old 02-02-2010, 08:08 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rokeby View Post
Somewhere in all I've read about the CTS pedal assembly it was said;

* It's manufacturing cost is $15
* It's retail cost is $120...

700% profit

That's a lot of beans...
The thing about that - The retail cost is the cost for a replacement unit from the dealer to you. The cost from the MFG to the auto company will be significantly less, because they had the chance to negotiate a price/unit contract, something you and I don't often have the pleasure of experiencing.

I do, however, try to negotiate prices in my favor no matter where I am (as long as it's applicable. You can't really negotiate the cost of a candy bar in a retail grocery store, get me?)
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Old 02-02-2010, 08:21 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Christ -

Quote:
Originally Posted by Christ View Post
...

Sure, it costs a little more up front, but the end result is a part that doesn't fail, kill someone, and cause a 80 million vehicle recall. Isn't that ultimately what we're after?
I'm not disagreeing with you. I just want to know *how* it came to this. I call this the "Titanic Syndrome", where a chain of ifs lead to (in this case economic) disaster (for Toyota). As an example of what I think you imply, this could be a case where endurance testing was conducted with (lower cost) computer simulation. If the simulation doesn't correctly take humidity into account, maybe it never "sees" the pedal get sticky. Garbage in, garbage out, Mr. Babbage!

My Dad was telling me how 747s and DC10s were some of the first fly-by-wire systems. There was no point in "fly-by-cable" because the planes were too big. A human wasn't physically strong enough to move the control surfaces with brute strength. However, they do have backup systems to allow the pilots to control the plane in even of systems failure. Little propellers pop out that are attached to generators. They allow the pilot to move the control surfaces with electric motors. Maybe Toyota forgot to add the little propeller-motors to their cars, .

CarloSW2
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Old 02-02-2010, 08:28 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Carlos -

If you can get that information, I'll read it. After you're jailed for uncovering some international conspiracy by our government to sell the entire economy of this country to the Japanese.

Have fun with that.

Obviously, I'm kidding. Japan can't afford our debt.
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Old 02-02-2010, 08:33 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Christ View Post
Carlos -

If you can get that information, I'll read it. After you're jailed for uncovering some international conspiracy by our government to sell the entire economy of this country to the Japanese.

Have fun with that.

Obviously, I'm kidding. Japan can't afford our debt.
747s and DC10s' fly-by-wire only cost'd $1.35 per plane. click here for source.
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Old 02-02-2010, 08:56 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Christ -

Quote:
Originally Posted by Christ View Post
Carlos -

If you can get that information, I'll read it. After you're jailed for uncovering some international conspiracy by our government to sell the entire economy of this country to the Japanese.

Have fun with that.
Ha ha, more like a conspiracy by GM to take down Toyota for becoming #1. Did you know what CTS actually stands for? :

Crush Toyota Sales ... ONE PEDAL AT A TIME!!!

Remember, you heard it here first, .

Overall, I don't know, I just have a vivid imagination. Is that a spider? AHHHHHH!, a spider! ... no wait, just a dust bunny ... nevermind. I'm just talking off the cuff. I could be wrong about everything. The thing is, we are looking at a flawed component. There have been warning signs going back to at least 2005, but no one has done anything substantive about it. And, Toyota's explanation doesn't add up. There's a long story here, and it would be neat (for me) to know it in full.

CarloSW2

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