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Old 02-02-2010, 09:03 PM   #31 (permalink)
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Remember my Mantra -

Real designers do it in real life, in real time, with real parts. When something doesn't work, we document it, figure out why, and correct it.
...and, field-test the hell out of it too!

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Old 02-02-2010, 09:10 PM   #32 (permalink)
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Hi Carlos,

Quote:
Originally Posted by cfg83 View Post
- Are there other non-Toyota pedals that are similar in design?
I heard that CTS gets only 3% of their revenue from Toyota, so I'm fairly sure they are making similar units for someone else. Didn't Ford have a "sudden acceleration" problem a couple of years ago? And the Audi 5000 was mentioned...

Yes, and there are other terrible problems -- like Ford trucks bursting into flames sitting in the driveway (at night) -- I think it was a cruise control component overheating...
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Old 02-02-2010, 09:17 PM   #33 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NeilBlanchard View Post
Hi Carlos,



I heard that CTS gets only 3% of their revenue from Toyota, so I'm fairly sure they are making similar units for someone else. Didn't Ford have a "sudden acceleration" problem a couple of years ago? And the Audi 5000 was mentioned...

Yes, and there are other terrible problems -- like Ford trucks bursting into flames sitting in the driveway (at night) -- I think it was a cruise control component overheating...
My Escort GT caught on fire. Shorted ignition switch.

The Audi 5000 had a UI incident, yes. Funny, though. It had a cable accelerator, IIRC.
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Old 02-02-2010, 09:43 PM   #34 (permalink)
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Neil -

Quote:
Originally Posted by NeilBlanchard View Post
Hi Carlos,

...

I heard that CTS gets only 3% of their revenue from Toyota, so I'm fairly sure they are making similar units for someone else. Didn't Ford have a "sudden acceleration" problem a couple of years ago? And the Audi 5000 was mentioned...

Yes, and there are other terrible problems -- like Ford trucks bursting into flames sitting in the driveway (at night) -- I think it was a cruise control component overheating...
Oh yeah, Peugeot's getting whacked also :

Peugeot?s German Plans Hurt by Toyota Venture Recalls (Update1) - Bloomberg.com
Quote:
Peugeot said it’s recalling about 10 percent of the C1s and 107s on European roads to fix an accelerator pedal made by Elkhart, Indiana-based CTS Corp. The defective pedals, which can become stuck, have already prompted Toyota to recall at least 4.1 million vehicles in North America and Europe. Over the past decade, 19 deaths have been linked to sudden acceleration of Toyotas, U.S. House Energy and Commerce Committee Chairman Henry Waxman said last week.
But I want to know if this "plastic friction slider" is an accepted solution by a completely different company. CTS claims it makes the pedals to Toyota specifications. Sooooo, it's a Toyota-engineered design. Maybe someone "did it right", but Toyota goofed.

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Old 02-02-2010, 09:47 PM   #35 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cfg83 View Post
Neil -



Oh yeah, Peugeot's getting whacked also :

Peugeot?s German Plans Hurt by Toyota Venture Recalls (Update1) - Bloomberg.com


But I want to know if this "plastic friction slider" is an accepted solution by a completely different company. CTS claims it makes the pedals to Toyota specifications. Sooooo, it's a Toyota-engineered design. Maybe someone "did it right", but Toyota goofed.

CarloSW2
So what really happened was Toyota's engineers designed it (in 2D), sent the design to CTS, and CTS was just "following directions", right?

I don't buy it. CTS is just as responsible as Toyota, for not testing the design to ensure it's safe operation. How did QC not design a test for something like this?
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Old 02-02-2010, 10:02 PM   #36 (permalink)
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Hello -

Found this interesting article :

http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dl...1/302019910/-1
Quote:
...
As chronicled in Toyota's Jan. 21 Defect Information Report to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, the buildup to the pedal recall was years in the making.
...
Kane's Safety Research & Strategies has tallied 2,057 sudden acceleration incidents involving Toyotas since 1999, with 725 resulting in crashes. A total of 18 people were killed and 304 injured, by its count.
...
Kane's research indicates there are multiple causes for sudden acceleration, ranging from mechanical interface to unidentified electronic defects. But many incidents can't be explained by either the floor mats or the pedal mechanism, suggesting lingering unidentified defects, he says.
...
Toyota believed the 2007 complaints about sticking accelerators were limited to the Tundra, according to the NHTSA report. And the European problems in the Aygo and Yaris were isolated in right-hand- drive cars with a particular configuration of the heat duct and accelerator pedal. Warm air from the heater could induce condensation on the friction lever, thereby causing it to stick, Toyota said.

The man at the eye of the storm is Toyota's top quality troubleshooter, Managing Officer Hiroyuki Yokoyama. In consultation with Executive Vice President Shinichi Sasaki, Yokoyama is the one making the final call on whether to launch a recall or not, insiders say.
...
Early signs of trouble
A timeline of Toyota's sudden-acceleration woes
March 2004: NHTSA opens investigation of 2002-03 Toyota Camry, Camry Solara, Lexus ES.
July 2004: NHTSA closes investigation without finding defect.
Aug. 2005: NHTSA opens investigation of 2002-05 Camry, Solara, Lexus ES.
Jan. 2006: NHTSA closes investigation without finding defect trend.
March 2007: NHTSA opens investigation into Lexus ES for floor mat interference.
March 2007: Toyota starts investigating sticking pedals in Toyota Tundra pickup.
Sept. 2007: Toyota recalls all-weather floor mats in the Lexus ES and Camry.
Jan. 2008: NHTSA opens investigation into 2006-07 Toyota Tacoma pickup.
April 2008: NHTSA opens investigation into 2004 Toyota Sienna minivan.
Aug. 2008: NHTSA closes Tacoma investigation without finding problem.
Dec. 2008: Toyota investigates sticking pedals in the Toyota Aygo and Yaris.
Jan. 2009: Toyota recalls Sienna minivans to fix floor carpet covers.
Aug. 2009: Crash of runaway Lexus ES 350 kills 4 in California.
Oct. 2009: Toyota begins recall of 4.3 million floor mats.
Jan. 2010: Toyota recalls 2.3 million cars for faulty pedal mechanism, suspends sales of 8 nameplates.
Jan. 2010: Toyota adds 1.1 million vehicles to floor mat recall.
Source: Safety Research & Strategies Inc., Center for Auto Safety
...
In an interview with Automotive News last month, Yokoyama said quality has suffered in recent years for several reasons, including the company's rapid increase in production, a proliferation of model types and the introduction of more electronic controls.
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Old 02-02-2010, 10:05 PM   #37 (permalink)
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Christ -

Quote:
Originally Posted by Christ View Post
So what really happened was Toyota's engineers designed it (in 2D), sent the design to CTS, and CTS was just "following directions", right?

I don't buy it. CTS is just as responsible as Toyota, for not testing the design to ensure it's safe operation. How did QC not design a test for something like this?
Ha ha, again, I am not disagreeing with you, I am just specumalatin'. I am looking at it from a non-emotional "Spock at the crime scene" POV.

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Old 02-05-2010, 03:25 AM   #38 (permalink)
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Hello -

My friend sent me this :

Fixing Toyota's Recalled Pedals: The Video starring Doug the Master Technician — Autoblog

It seems a different repair shim is used based on a gap measurement made by the mechanic. What does that mean? Does a bigger (or smaller?) shim mean the pedal is closer to sticking? Is this to compensate for divergent manufacturing tolerances? Or ... ???

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Old 02-05-2010, 10:03 AM   #39 (permalink)
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Quote:
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Neil -



Oh yeah, Peugeot's getting whacked also :

Peugeot?s German Plans Hurt by Toyota Venture Recalls (Update1) - Bloomberg.com


But I want to know if this "plastic friction slider" is an accepted solution by a completely different company. CTS claims it makes the pedals to Toyota specifications. Sooooo, it's a Toyota-engineered design. Maybe someone "did it right", but Toyota goofed.

CarloSW2
Toyota would have provided specifications such as the physical size, mounting specs, angles of motion, electrical inputs, outputs and connection type and size, even the color, and the manufacturer would submit their design for technical review and cost analysis. Toyota would also have specified different types of testing the part must be subjected to, such as cyclic testing in varying environmental conditions. That is why the Denso and CTS pedals are physically different, but functionally the same. Toyota may have "goofed" only by not adequately reviewing the long term implications of the different designs.
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Old 02-05-2010, 11:40 AM   #40 (permalink)
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...'Sold by' and 'Made by'are two different sides of the same coin.

...seller bears the initial responsibility, while maker has secondary responsibility--legally.

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