If the US made the standard, standard

[Frank Lee]

Originally Posted by redpoint5

So which is it; we are governed by the same laws that the animal kingdom are bound to, or we are held to some sort of moral code?

You couldn't detect the sarcasm so I fixed it for you.

[redpoint5]

Originally Posted by Frank Lee

You couldn't detect the sarcasm so I fixed it for you.

Thank you, but I did notice it was satire. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but from your satire I drew 2 theses.

1. "Churches" teach a doctrine of do whatever the heck you want, and are therefore disreputable ethical institutions.

2. The laws which govern the animal kingdom are insufficient for humans because we are something special or different from "mere animals".

In thesis 1, I point out that practically no organized religion condones "anything goes" behavior.

In thesis 2, you seem to be alluding to an alternate source for a moral compass, but stop short of defining it. My inelegant response was intended to illicit that source from you, but more than that to have other readers ponder that question for a moment; what is a reasonable moral compass?

I lumped religion and politics into the same category because I see no practical distinction between them. They both define a code of conduct, reward for adhering to it, and punishment for breaching it. The foundational principles of US law are even rooted in Christianity!

We are clearly incapable of being our own moral compass since we tend to agree that anarchy is to be avoided. You have ruled out "churches" and I have so closely related religion and politics that you cannot throw one out without applying the same reasoning to the other.

The question remains; what is the valid moral compass that empowers one to point the finger at another, and with certainty declare "you are clearly the douche"?

This is going quite off topic, but I find the "why" question of ecomodding even more interesting than the "how".

[Allch Chcar]

Average MPG would go up and eventually the EPA would fix the biased rating system to match real world mileage. The EPA adjusted MPG ratings in 2008 now favor automatics even though manuals still score better in the Euro and JPN cycle. Manuals were beating automatics in the past but now it's not unusual to see a manual with far shorter gearing getting the same MPG as the more ideally geared automatics even dry clutch autos. Progress?

[shovel]

Originally Posted by redpoint5

We are clearly incapable of being our own moral compass since we tend to agree that anarchy is to be avoided. .

I don't believe this is true. My guess would be that a large majority of people will handily arrive at a sustainable sort of behavior on their own, through exposure to family, community and the experiences most of us either glimpse or live - like resource shortages, loss, the effect of another's greed, the effect of carelessness, etc.. - basically if you have an imagination at all and if you care at all about someone other than yourself, you can imagine what a dead-end most "bad", or wasteful, or unsustainable behaviors are and act in a way that (according to your imagination) seems sustainable.

I don't subscribe to the practice of anarchy, as probably do many other people not subscribe to it, because I recognize that while most of us are reasonable and possess the above learned morals - those who cannot or will not learn those morals can cause significant harm (to us, to the stability of the future we imagine for ourselves, to those about whom we care) if granted the freedom to exercise their selfish or careless acts. Because we recognize this threat, we concede some liberty for the sake of stability. This is a concession made without need for a church or a "moral leader" - both of which seem always to be corrupt anyway.

I'm no longer clear on what any of this has to do with manual transmissions, except that I just don't see them saving the world. Unless operating the clutch lowers sperm counts or something.

[Thymeclock]

Originally Posted by rollercoaster

Someone needs to make a simple no frills car with manual windows, a manual trans, manual mirrors etc and etc.

They still do, but apparently you didn't buy one.

Todays cars are filled with so much gadgetry it adds more weight and distractions to the driver. May be the ABS can stay and HID headlights would be good -with other LED lights. All wheel drive would be nice if I lived in the snow belt/North.(-but this would sacrifice gas mileage. )

This is what Germany did with the VW bug. The peoples car. Something almost everyone could afford.

Yep, the "people's car" was something every NAtional ZocIalist could love...

The Mazda I bought 6 years ago has power seats. I did not want power seats. You set the position once and then what? I carry the weight of those little motors and wiring with me everywhere I go -same with power mirrors. You set them once and leave them alone. This gadgetry makes no sense.

Then why did you buy it?

I bought an Aveo for my wife for her daily commute to work: manual windows, manual mirrors, manual seats, no climate control, minimal electronic gadgetry, it's a no frills car. But we did want (and bought it with) A/C and A/T because driving in NY City is intolerable without those amenities. If a product isn't what I want, I don't buy it.

Unfortunately Americans are lazy and want their conveniences.

No, actually Americans don't know really what they want and/or are persuaded to buy things they don't want or need (just as you admit you did). But no one put a gun to anyone's head to buy these things - it was achieved through mass media brainwashing.

[shovel]

Originally Posted by Thymeclock

Yep, the "people's car" was something every NAtional ZocIalist could love...

We just can't escape Godwin's law can we?

I heard that Adolf Hitler breathed air, so breathing air is clearly something only a Nazi would do. If you're not a Nazi, you should stop breathing air immediately.

[Thymeclock]

Originally Posted by shovel

We just can't escape Godwin's law can we?

I heard that Adolf Hitler breathed air, so breathing air is clearly something only a Nazi would do. If you're not a Nazi, you should stop breathing air immediately.

This is not about Godwin's law; in citing that, you are quick to make a supercilious remark in attempt to appear clever. In this case my mention of it is citing historical fact, not hyperbole. You obviously are ignorant of the history of Nazi Germany and how Volkswagen was founded. Here, (quoted from Wikipedia) is the history of the origins of Volkswagen, which is undeniable. You might learn something from it and not be so quick to 'shoot from the lip'.

1937–1945: People's Car project becomes Kübelwagen
Model of Porsche Type 12 (Zündapp), Museum of Industrial Culture, Nurnberg

Volkswagen was originally founded in 1937 by the Nazi trade union, the German Labour Front (Deutsche Arbeitsfront).[2] In the early 1930s German auto industry was still largely composed of luxury models, and the average German rarely could afford anything more than a motorcycle. As a result only one German out of 50 owned a car. Seeking a potential new market, some car makers began independent "peoples' car" projects – Mercedes' 170H, Adler's AutoBahn, Steyr 55, Hanomag 1,3L, among others.

The trend was not new, as Béla Barényi is credited with having conceived the basic design in the middle 1920s. Josef Ganz developed the Standard Superior (going as far as advertising it as the "German Volkswagen").[3][broken citation] Also, in Czechoslovakia, the Hans Ledwinka's penned Tatra T77, a very popular car amongst the German elite, was becoming smaller and more affordable at each revision. In 1933, with many of the above projects still in development or early stages of production, Adolf Hitler got involved, demanding the production of a basic vehicle capable of transporting two adults and three children at 100 km/h (62 mph). The "People's Car" would be available to citizens of the Third Reich through a savings scheme at 990 Reichsmark (US$396 in 1930s dollars)--about the price of a small motorcycle (an average income being around 32RM a week).[4][5]

Despite heavy lobbying in favour of one of the existing projects, it soon became apparent that private industry could not turn out a car for only 990RM. Thus, Hitler chose to sponsor an all-new, state-owned factory. The intention was that ordinary Germans would buy the car by means of a savings scheme ("Fünf Mark die Woche musst du sparen, willst du im eigenen Wagen fahren" – "Five marks a week you must put aside, if you want in your own car to ride"), which around 336,000 people eventually paid into. Prototypes of the car called the "KdF-Wagen" (German: Kraft durch Freude – "strength through joy"), appeared from 1936 onwards (the first cars had been produced in Stuttgart). The car already had its distinctive round shape and air-cooled, flat-four, rear-mounted engine. The VW car was just one of many KdF programs which included things such as tours and outings. The prefix Volks— ("People's") was not just applied to cars, but also to other products in Europe; the "Volksempfänger" radio receiver for instance. On 28 May 1937, the Gesellschaft zur Vorbereitung des Deutschen Volkswagens mbH (sometimes abbreviated to Gezuvor[6]) was established by the Deutsche Arbeitsfront. It was later renamed "Volkswagenwerk GmbH" on 16 September 1938.[7]
VW Type 82E

Erwin Komenda, the longstanding Auto Union chief designer, developed the car body of the prototype, which was recognizably the Beetle known today. It was one of the first to be evolved with the aid of a wind tunnel, in use in Germany since the early 1920s.

The building of the new factory started 26 May 1938 in the new town of KdF-Stadt, now called Wolfsburg, which had been purpose-built for the factory workers. This factory had only produced a handful of cars by the time war started in 1939. None was actually delivered to any holder of the completed saving stamp books, though one Type 1 Cabriolet was presented to Hitler on 20 April 1938 (his 49th birthday).

War meant production changed to military vehicles, the Type 82 Kübelwagen ("Bucket car") utility vehicle (VW's most common wartime model), and the amphibious Schwimmwagen which were used to equip the German forces. As was common with much of the production in Nazi Germany during the war, slave labor was utilized in the Volkswagen plant. The company would admit in 1998 that it used 15,000 slaves during the war effort. German historians estimated the that 80% of Volkswagen's wartime workforce was slave labor.[citation needed] Many of the slaves were reported to have been supplied from the concentration camps upon request from plant managers. A lawsuit was filed in 1998 by survivors for restitution for the forced labor.[8] Volkswagen would set up a voluntary restitution fund.[9]

[shovel]

Originally Posted by Thymeclock

This is not about Godwin's law;

It's totally Godwin's law. Mention was made of basic, affordable transportation and because one of the many things that came out of Germany during the Nazi regime was basic, affordable transportation you felt it necessary to bring the concept of Nazis into this. That's pretty much dictionary definition Godwin.

Originally Posted by Thymeclock

You obviously are ignorant of the history of Nazi Germany

Obviously. Did I mention my mother was born in Stuttgart in 1936 and lived there through the '50's?

So here we have it, both of us thinks the other is a little slow. You Godwin'ed, I accused you of doing so without merit. You responded, I responded.

Wanna get a beer?

[Thymeclock]

Originally Posted by shovel

It's totally Godwin's law. Mention was made of basic, affordable transportation and because one of the many things that came out of Germany during the Nazi regime was basic, affordable transportation you felt it necessary to bring the concept of Nazis into this. That's pretty much dictionary definition Godwin.

No, originally mention was made of "the people's car", and in response I pointed out that that is a socialist concept with its roots in NAZI Germany. The rest is history, and it is relevant to the origins of the idea. I seem to have touched a nerve with you for having mentioned it.

Did I mention my mother was born in Stuttgart in 1936 and lived there through the '50's?

You did now. But why are you telling us that and why should anyone care? Perhaps that is why you are so touchy about anyone mentioning anything to do with the National Socialist regime.

So here we have it, both of us thinks the other is a little slow.

I don't think you are "slow" at all. I think your problem is a different one.

Wanna get a beer?

Nope. I'm not an enthusiast of beer or biergartens, or of the "people's car".

[shovel]

Originally Posted by Thymeclock

But why are you telling us that and why should anyone care?
.

Clearly in response to your baseless accusation of ignorance, directly under which it appeared in my post. It was intended as a reminder that none of us knows enough about each other to say "obviously you are ignorant".

The nerve you've touched has nothing to do with German history, but rather that many a good idea gets debased by someone trying to associate it with a universally negative idea. The concept of a simplified car made affordable really does have merit, and there is no positive reason for it to be dismissed by association with some unpopular political group from the past who also happened to express that idea.