Increasing mpg to save earth or try vegetarianism instead

[SVOboy]

Originally Posted by IndyIan

So I doubt anyones vegan food, that has been industrially grown, processed, packaged, and shipped from 500 miles away, is remotely close to being as sustainable as my roast chicken last night or my eggs for breakfast.

I would argue that point, primarily looking at how large your footprint is. Do you really think it's sustainable to have every human subsistence farming? Especially with meat? Mehbe if we had a very small percentage of the humans we currently do...

[IndyIan]

Originally Posted by SVOboy

I would argue that point, primarily looking at how large your footprint is. Do you really think it's sustainable to have every human subsistence farming? Especially with meat? Mehbe if we had a very small percentage of the humans we currently do...

Is it sustainable to have every human being vegan and going to university? How many universities would we need to build?! Will there be any farm land left after all those sprawling campuses pop up?
Obviously everyone can't do the same thing as us(in canada there probably is enough arable land but not globally), and we do provide many of our neighbors with eggs and chicken once in a while so we are producing for others. We are terribly inefficient as producers but totally sustainable too, in 40 of 50 years our little garden and pasture will be in better shape than it is in now, without chemical fertillizers. Farmer Brown in my previous example is going to be more efficient than us because he knows more about chicken farming than us and is more motivated to make things more efficient, he has to make money at it too.

Supporting industrial agriculture even as a vegan isn't really sustainable, Monsanto and their round up ready soybeans are not looking long term at all at what the consequences of messing around with genetics is. Their main goal is to make money now, not provide you with good food to eat, not to help farmers make money, do some reading about what they are doing in India and other developing countries. I imagine they look at the fossil fuel industry as a model for getting society dependent on their product so they can set the price as they wish. Already they prevent farmers from saving seed to use next year... I'm not afraid to say that we have way to many people on the planet right now, and using industrial methods to feed 7 billion more as vegans isn't going to really work out in the long term either, it just delays inevitable.

Subsistence farming done properly has got to be the one of the most sustainable ways to live there is. Hunting and gathering might be better... But so far I'm not a very successful hunter though.
People have lived for far longer farming or hunting with far less effect on the planet that we have had in the last 200-300 yrs. The industrial age has allowed intensive agriculture to provide cheap food for many more people at an environmental cost that probably can't be sustained for the next 100yrs let alone 100,000...

Obviously all of society is not ready to go back into the woods or the fields but those that are should be supported regardless of their dietary choices.
Ian

[LostCause]

I second that subsistence farming is more viable than agribusiness. Through new practices, subsistence farming can readily beat major farms in productivity per acre and water efficiency.

As an example of efficiency, the average suburban lot could be turned into a subsistence farm perfectly well. People have converted the backyards of 1/5 acre lots to provide 95% of a family of four's food needs. The local environment plays a big factor in the plot of land needed, but changing old ways of thought goes a long way too. Planting crops in rows is about as backwards as the typewriter.

Veganism is good in itself, but it is tantamount to hypermiling a hummer when food is sourced from industrial farms.

- LostCause

[steensn]

What do you do with all the cows then!? Sure it sounds good to reduce our meat intake, but what if everyone became a vegan? Cows would go extinct, we wouldn't have MANURE to fertilize the vegetables we eat. IMO there is a BALANCE here, that is why God created animals. Until we start using human crap for fertilizer, there is a very large "balnce" God set into motion years ago.

Infact, I KNOW FOR A FACT that I fart WAY more when I eat only vegetables. In my wifes opinion that is enough CO2 equal to a whole mega farm in Ohio and enough methane to power a small suburb of Detroit

[SVOboy]

I'm pretty sure there are animals on this planet besides domesticated animals for slaughter...they get along fine...

And I don't remember ever using manure to fertilize anything bigger than my personal garden, definitely not the hundreds of acres of crops we grow.

[steensn]

Are you for real? Do you live in the country? We REGULARLY used pig manure and cow manure to fertilize the same feilds used to grow soy, sweet corn, and feed corn on my grandma's farm. I drive around now, I no longer help on the farm, and I can tell when the farmers spread the manure.

Where are you from? In NW Ohio we use all the manure we can to grow crop.

[SVOboy]

Missouri. The cattle's manure just goes to grass on the fields the eat. Sometimes they graze the hay fields after it's bailed, but hell, the hay is grown for them to eat anyway, not for people, so does it really do anything if the cows are fertilizing it? If anyway, it just shows how much space is wasted to feed the stupid cows.

[steensn]

Ah, your cows eat grass... our "megafarms" use the leftover corn husks, stalks, and the insides of the cobs to feed cows that are so tightely packed into a small area that they can barely walk. Humane? IDK, they're animals. Most beef in the US I think are grown on super farms and there you MUST scoop the poop or in about 3 months the cows will be able to walk over the fencing. Food is brought in.

If no one ate meat though, where would the cows roam? Cattle are extinct in the wild, although there are SOME type of wild cattle still around. The ones you saw everyday are not equipped to live on an open range and survive anymore. We would have to protect them in some kind of natural preserve somewhere so they do not all die off. Somehow someone would still need to help them survive.

[SVOboy]

If cattle are extinct in the wild then, oh well. I'm not crying over the buffalo either...the current ecosystem may not like certain animals, and that's tough for them, I guess,

[ttoyoda]

Vegan, weeeeee!

(also too tired to post coherently)

Hmmm... Cause? Effect?
I eat whatever my saintly wife makes.