An interesting idea for energy storage.

[oil pan 4]

I have seen a number of hydro electric dams electrically dismantled because the water is needed more for drinking and irrigation than power generation.
As far as building a new dam all the nimby grubs come out of the wood work and stop that from happening pretty much every where.

[Hersbird]

Originally Posted by oil pan 4

I have seen a number of hydro electric dams electrically dismantled because the water is needed more for drinking and irrigation than power generation.
As far as building a new dam all the nimby grubs come out of the wood work and stop that from happening pretty much every where.

Many dams were originally built to control runoff and provide a constant source for drinking and irrigation. They also help control flooding. The electricity was just a side perk. There are negative side effects but I think those are easier to mitigate then most other power generation sources.

[oil pan 4]

Hydro power isn't that safe. Its kills more people than any other means of generation.

[IamIan]

Originally Posted by oil pan 4

Hydro power isn't that safe. Its kills more people than any other means of generation.

Seems ... too all inclusive .. As written it leaves allot of open loop holes.

'any' means of generation ... includes ... well ... 'any'

[Hersbird]

Originally Posted by oil pan 4

Hydro power isn't that safe. Its kills more people than any other means of generation.

That was all from one failure in 1970s China in a 1 in 2000 year flood. So yeah, a couple of times between each ice age I suppose it's possible before modern communications.
Now how many people have been saved from the control of flooding that also used to kill 1000s a year in areas "fixed" by adding a few days to the system? Go back to 1931 in China and over 3 million people were killed in flooding before the dams were in place. Makes the 150,000 killed in the 1975 failure seem like a better deal. They had 3 times the population in 1975 as well and the flooding was bigger then in 1931.

[RustyLugNut]

Yes, it is little more than lab work at this point but low cycle performance notwithstanding, it could find a place within the power utilities schemes.

The Ivanpah Heliostat Power Station just on the border of California and Nevada is one prime example of a facility that is in dire need of a thermo-chemical storage system. Even though it is a "solar" power plant that leverages the 250-300 days of sun found in the region, it still burns significant amounts of fossil natural gas as a load leveling technique. It is more correct to call the power station a "hybrid" solar/natural gas facility. It's optimistic 400 MW capacity is largely filled by long runs on NG. As I understand it, the 3 large heliostat arrays peak just after noontime but produce far more heat than the boilers can absorb. A percentage of the mirrors are taken off line as turbine capacity peaks. This capacity for solar heat is wasted. A means to capture and store this energy would allow greater "solar powered" run times.

The technology Old Tele Man spoke of - liquid sodium salt, is used in a much smaller heliostat power station in Northern Nevada. At its turbine capacity of 110 MW, the excess solar energy of mid day is stored in melting sodium salts for use after sunset. On a good day, there may be enough heat energy in the salt to run the station for up to five hours after sunset.

Heliostat Power Arrays are not without their problems. Displaced Desert Tortoises and cooked birds come to mind. The blinding mirror arrays could be another. But, at this time, they are a capable and possibly cheaper form of solar power until solar panels can undercut them. Even then, Heliostat arrays can more easily store their energy if molten salts and thermochemical cycles are used. This thermochemical cycle under discussion is simply another piece in the mosaic that is the puzzle for our future energy solutions.

The state of Nevada is banking on solar power in heliostat stations and panel farms to team with the abundant locations for current and future geothermal power plants to displace its coal plants which make up a large portion of its energy portfolio.

[oil pan 4]

The bird incinerator in California only produces about half the power they thought it would.
Much worse cost per watt than home roof top grid tied solar.
Cheap panels are getting close to $1/watt, high end made in USA panels are close to $3/watt.

Those gigantic bird incinerators are all labor and material costs and will only get more and more expensive to build as time goes on.
Solar panels and inverters will likely to continue to keep getting cheaper.

[RustyLugNut]

Originally Posted by oil pan 4

The bird incinerator in California only produces about half the power they thought it would.
Much worse cost per watt than home roof top grid tied solar.
Cheap panels are getting close to $1/watt, high end made in USA panels are close to $3/watt.

Those gigantic bird incinerators are all labor and material costs and will only get more and more expensive to build as time goes on.
Solar panels and inverters will likely to continue to keep getting cheaper.

By their very nature and scope, the heliostat farms are still pretty much "prototypes". Thusly build costs are much higher than the coal plants they are meant to replace but are far lower in costs than a nuclear power plant. Want to make a bet that they will be on par with coal plants in the near future? Major corporations have made that bet and the US Government has backed them up with loan guarantees.

You seem to think the bird burning is an unsolvable issue as well as the costs. Neither is a game stopper. The costs will come down as experience is gained and design elements are standardized. Bird deaths are most likely over inflated but basic precautions such as covering ponds and trash bins so as not to attract birds is a simple step. Electronically warding off the insects attracted to the light and thus attracting bug eating birds is another simple step. Deploying proven technologies such as LRADs (Long range acoustic devices) which are in use to ward off birds in many airports is another.

Even though the power output has been a mere fraction of it's "rated" capacity, you must understand that Ivanpah has only been in operation since 2013. It's first year of operation saw many stoppages caused by situations other than plant breakdowns and weather. The stoppages to asses the bird deaths contributed to the "lack of production". So did the need to fence the perimeter to keep out ground animals. Inspection down time has to be included in this. This is all just part of the growing pains of a prototype system. Ivanpah is a large scale prototype. It will NEVER reach it's rated capacity. It cannot until an integral energy storage system is functioning. There are far more heliostat mirrors on the farms than needed at peak sunshine so that full power can be achieved at early and late day light. If that capacity can be captured and stored, the plant can meet and even exceed the current rated capacity.

Again, I stress the need for an energy mix. Rooftop panels may indeed become so cheap as to provide the grid with a large percentage of the power needs. However, they do not provide energy at night and will not have a low cost means of storing that energy until battery tech comes down in price and reliability. Or we find a way of storing that excess electricity in another fashion.

[Hersbird]

But then the birds and insects are removed from their natural habitat. Much like the complaint of dams shutting off fish runs. Oh sure, you can have a million of them on the new giant lake on the other side. I'm joking now but just wait and see.

[RustyLugNut]

Originally Posted by Hersbird

But then the birds and insects are removed from their natural habitat. Much like the complaint of dams shutting off fish runs. Oh sure, you can have a million of them on the new giant lake on the other side. I'm joking now but just wait and see.

If you have a better idea for renewable high energy production, please feel free to chime in. I'm all for liquid fluoride thorium reactors. However, the general public has been poisoned to hate anything nuclear. Until we get over that hump, "renewables" is the only thing that can replace some of our energy needs along with conservation. The only way renewables work is with the careful application of all available technologies. None of them work with the surety of nuclear but can interleave to provide viable energy stability to a modern society.

As to the "burning bird" studies and the insect eradication.

We simply need more time to study the biological mechanisms that are at work in the heliostat farms. There is some evidence that shows that insects do not travel from far and wide to seek self immolation. Insects at a certain radius ignore the glow. Also, there seems to be an avenue of transport along vegetation. Simply clearing brush reduces their tendency to migrate onto the solar farm. There will always be insects that will wander in but the insect count out in the Mojave is several orders of magnitude below what is found in much more fecund environments. The giant insect "zapper" effect can be minimized.

The bird studies bear some mention. One study simply used a camera to record "flares and smokers" over a period of time and extrapolated that over a year to come to the conclusion that tens of thousands of birds would be killed per year. There was no way to delineate weather the cause of the smoke plume or trail was a bird, large insect or trash and debris. This study as well as others, is holding up construction of an even larger heliostat farm which is in the flight path of waterfowl migration. There is little to no evidence that waterfowl are even attracted to the solar power stations. A more concise study should tally local indigenous species in the mortality count and separate the flying vermin that are attracted to human activities such as crows and the ever present pigeon. Body count studies do show that there is a problem with bird mortality. But the reporting needs to be less sensationalized to determine the over all effect and what needs to be done.